any southerners out there: some questions

[kaigou]

This is being passed along/asked on behalf of taithe -- you can read what prompted these question in this thread (from the previous post). Slightly modified to be more universal for Southerners in general:

Who is defined as a Southerner? When not in the South, can you spot a Southerner right away or is it less obvious? If you live outside the South, do you feel like you don't/can't belong because of your Southern background? How closely do you think you match the stereotype of Southerner, and do you think this impacts how well you fit in -- or don't fit in -- when living outside the South? Alternate for those who've always lived/stayed in the South: can you identify when someone's a returning Southerner versus a newcomer picking up Southern habits? If so, what's the tip-off?

Formally speaking, "being Southern" has two-parts, or so I was always taught: born, and bred. Technically, I'm not a born-Southerner (thanks, DAD, the military guy!) because I was born in North Dakota. I'm completely bred-Southern, though, since we returned to the Deep South when I was six months old, and I lived in various places in the South until I was in mid-twenties. Beyond that, I have multiple generations in all directions who are born-and-bred Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and Mississippi, so generally... yeah, I'm pretty Southern.

Spotting Southerners... not actually that hard. If it's not the accent -- and I'd say I'm fairly good at pegging regionalisms in accents, but even if you're not, it's still a rather unmistakable accent unless it's really really soft -- then another big marker is phrases. Things like "I swan" and "what in the sam hill," are older Appalachian (Borderlands-England-derived) phrases, or calling things (especially bugs) "puppies" -- as in, "look at the size of that puppy!" when it's a big lizard or cricket. Some are more widespread now, that other areas/people have adopted, so you can't be quite as sure -- like saying "bless her heart" -- but if the person has just made an insulting statement and follows it with "bless her heart," then this nuance means they've got a clue. (So if not Southern, maybe a good friend or spouse, to learn it from.)

Another odd phrase you only hear in the rural areas of the South: "I can't tell you the way, but I could carry you there." Don't ask me where that one comes from, I haven't the faintest. (And the last four words of that sentence are another phrase-marker.) If something is "yay big," probably Southern or Southern-influenced.

Speech-patterns in women will sometimes be a give-away: "My, it's hot outside, isn't it." Delivered not as a question, but as a flat statement -- but it's one that's setting you up to agree. Southern speech patterns are big on setting you up to agree, especially female speech patterns. "If you wouldn't mind, could you put this on the table, please?" or "If it's not a bother, I'd appreciate if you put that on the table..." There's like three different ingratiating maneuvers in those phrases... another overlaying of prepping-you-to-go-along speech pattern. (Yankees I met just hated that construction, especially Bostonians. Dunno why it bugged 'em so much.)

Southern speech patterns are often circuitous, too, especially if you're falling down on your hospitality. A guest might say, "goodness, it's so hot, isn't it? Makes a body quite parched." This is your cue to offer iced tea, but the fact that anyone had to say something (even if that is incredibly oblique) means you've already messed up. It's not just an upper-class thing, but more a matter of formality. Upper-class just means the formality stays in place until you're talking immediate (parent-child) relations; lower-class means the informality ("It's hot; aren't you going to offer your uncle some tea?") can range wider, up to and including old friends.

If the person uses family-titles... probably Southern. "Cousin John" as opposed to "my cousin, John". Nicknames for family-members -- sissie (sister), bubba (older brother). For grandparents, you may hear: Daddy [surname] or Papa [surname], although sometimes it's "first name" instead of surname. Nicknames for family-place are also more common: Junior, Trey (the third), Quin/Quince (the fourth) Ivy (the fourth) and Quin (the fifth) [with thanks to kathmandu for thumping me on that one], though these aren't usually applied to girls. I've had to look hard to find other regions where family-titles are emphasized quite so much.

Beyond that... sometimes it's just mannerisms, or the progression of the conversation. Any questions about family (especially the all-powerful, "where's your family from?") and I know I'm dealing with Southern or strongly Southern-influenced.

If someone mocks your Southern-ness, they're probably not Southern (or they're connected/married to a Southerner enough to feel they can get away with such offenses, like they're part of the in-group... more questions about family may be required to determine if they're allowed such liberties). If someone mocks the non-Southerners around you, then they're probably Southern.

Outside of the South, however, most Southerners I've known do fit in -- or maybe I should say, they don't rock the boat all that much. Maybe it's due to the overwhelming social pressure that likes to kick Southerners, that causes a lot of Southerners to be either big-chip-on-shoulder, or to become a kind of quasi-zen, just flowing around the attacking force. The most resilient Southerners I've known (outside of the Deep South) do appear to achieve that flow-around, continuing being gracious and courteous... but there's a certain smile I've seen on the faces of an awful lot of Southerners, and that alone can cause me to peg a fellow Southerner without words being spoken.

It's a smile our mothers often give (yeah, many mothers do) when she's angry, or embarrassed, but doesn't want to show it too clearly: a sort of fixed smile that appears pleasant to strangers but to those in the know, boy, are you in for it when you get home. Strangers giving that kind of wide, apparently-gracious, pleasant (if somewhat vapid) smile, especially in a stressful situation, can give off the same signals to me. It's a smile that says you're eating your fury, because it's unacceptable to a) let anyone know they got to you, and b) show your anger in public, even if you didn't mind letting on.

If two people are arguing in public AND they're not in their home-town: probably not Southern. By arguing, I mean, arguing on the level of personal attacks. It's one thing to argue over whether the iron is left on, or whether the car's been fixed. But... I dunno how to put it. Airing dirty laundry about your relationship, your family, your spouse -- that's okay, in many New England communities. Screaming fits between partners, in public restaurants and parking lots, oh, whatever. (Meanwhile, my ex and I were crawling under the table, in embarrassment on the couple's behalf: couldn't they see how mortified everyone else was to know they would say such things to, and about, each other?) In every Southern community I've ever known, arguments are meant to be held away from family/friends, behind closed doors.

(The problem with extended local family is that arguing too loudly means your family will know of your troubles and then use them against you. One way or another. But then, mothers-in-law do this the world over... it's just this sotto-voco-arguing style seems to have developed as a way to try and stymie any resulting familial intrusion.)

The issue of being (or not being) a stereotypical Southerner seems to be relaxing, at least in the Deep South. Or maybe it's just that once you're not in your late teens, early twenties, the rest of the family figures you're a lost cause and maybe they should just accept that you're an Eccentric Cousin who has these crazy ideas and doesn't stick "isn't it" on the end of sentences. It's possible the pressures still exist (especially on young women) in the South, to conform to this narrow heavily-gender-informed set of behaviors. Hell, beyond that, there are plenty of pressures from outside the South to conform to the stereotype -- the whole "are you sure you're really Southern? you don't do ___" nonsense. Maybe it's just that I'm such a bastard now that no one dares try and correct me on what I can, or cannot, do, as a Southern woman.

Alright, that's my take on it. Anyone else? I'll repeat the questions rather than make you scroll up, so have at it!

Who is defined as a Southerner? When not in the South, can you spot a Southerner right away or is it less obvious? If you live outside the South, do you feel like you don't/can't belong because of your Southern background? How closely do you think you match the stereotype of Southerner, and do you think this impacts how well you fit in -- or don't fit in -- when living outside the South? Alternate for those who've always lived/stayed in the South: can you identify when someone's a returning Southerner versus a newcomer picking up Southern habits? If so, what's the tip-off?

If you don't mind taithe using your comments as possible jumping-off or consideration points for grad study, and want to contribute with your own stories/input for her questions, please feel free. If you'd prefer anonymity, you can go with anonymous here (I'm hoping that's okay, for taithe's purposes), or just PM taithe directly.

If your experience has differed from mine, especially do speak up. The South is hardly monolithic and I'm nowhere near an expert on All Things Southern, so do feel free to help me make sure no one gets that impression. Let's freely contradict each other, if that's what it be.

[see comments for additional response/questions from taithe]

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm just a random anon passerby, but "being Southern" has two-parts, or so I was always taught: born, and bred strikes me as really odd because my situation is the polar opposite of yours: I was born while my (decidedly not Southern) parents were visiting a family friend, and have spent my entire life save the first few weeks in the Upper Midwest. The thought of identifying as Southern in any way would never have occurred to me in a million years, despite the fact that if I were to need a copy of my birth certificate I would have to contact Garland County, Arkansas and have it shipped to me.

I realize this post is directed at people with different experiences, but the idea of merely being born in the South contributing to a Southern identity really jumped out at me as I was browsing DW because it runs so counter to my own experiences.

[kaigou]

No, I think it's pretty parallel -- because believe me, never in a hundred years would I consider myself a North Dakotan! (Hell, it's like 40F outside and I'm FREEZING. I'd die if I had to live in North Dakota. Freeze to death! In July!)

The origins -- as I recall -- of the whole born-and-bred issue actually stem from Reconstruction. Nowadays, I don't know how many people give a damn (other than to joke about it, or to tease each other) but when I was a kid, it was still used as a measure. Maybe in some conservative parts or families, it still is -- really, it's just a way to determine who is in-group and who's out-group. Being bred usually outranks being born, even when I was a kid (and further, your parents not being 'from' the South means you aren't 'from' the South, so you're only technically 'born', but you're still not Southern unless someone in your family got bred, heh, what a bizarre way to put it).

Anyway, Reconstruction consisted of an awful lot of people (carpetbaggers, for the less polite term) coming down to the South to take advantage of, well, a lot of things. Mostly of cheap confiscated Southern land and property... and these folks would then declare themselves Southern. Which maybe their children were to some degree, but the distinction was made to continue to keep the carpetbaggers out -- they may be bred, but they weren't born. Ergo, they're not "real" Southerners, and thus we get Southern comments like, "having children in the South does not make your children automatically Southern; just because your cat has its kittens in the oven doesn't mean you call them biscuits."

A point I tend to be snarky about myself, since growing up I sometimes got that "bred but not born" crap from some of the snobbier -- and I mean lower-class, distrustful of college educations and/or people who travel -- parts of the family. But still, there's historical basis for the distinction, though it does seem to be fading (at least, I hope it is).

Not a Southerner... but still commenting

[hollyberries]

It's interesting, given that I first learned English in the Midwest (Iowa, to be precise), and yet I seem to have picked up a number of 'Southern' speech patterns. I tend to use 'bless her' after complaining about someone (err, not that I complain a lot!) and If you wouldn't mind, could you put this on the table, please?"/"If it's not a bother, I'd appreciate if you put that on the table..." so much, it's even leaked into my Chinese. Which annoys the hell out of my parents, actually.

Also, the smile thing may not be exclusive to Southerners? I've seen it on a number of immigrants or put-upon salespeople who have to deal with uncooperative, belligerent strangers day in and day out.

[kaigou]

I've seen it on a number of immigrants or put-upon salespeople who have to deal with uncooperative, belligerent strangers day in and day out.

At the risk of putting too fine a point on it, it's a smile that is associated with people who are (or just believe themselves to be) the social-lesser in the interaction. A serviceperson whose job is to serve (ie, his/her feelings are secondary), an immigrant who is trying to follow the hidden nuances and doesn't know them (and thus is worried about cultural landmines), or a Southerner who's been taught that in the face of conflict, smile, cover, and don't let on. I guess it's just the look of someone who finds a situation highly uncomfortable, feels some of it may be their own fault, and would rather smile and smooth than face it head on. Least the parts of the South I grew up with, "facing head on" is just not okay. (For men and women, btw.)

Some of the more common speech patterns -- like 'bless her heart' (mind you, I've never heard it as just 'bless her', it's always 'bless her heart') -- have filtered into the broader culture, probably due to movies/tv... and the random email multi-recipient "cute" regional emails like "You know you're a Southerner if..." and "You know you're from Baltimore if..." -- that exposes other people to regional quirks, and thereby enters the popular usage.

The female-speech pattern is something I have seen in women's speech in lots of places. Most of the time, the difference I've noted is that when a woman doesn't use that pattern, she's not penalized, while in the South, not using it will get you major ruffled feathers. Elsewhere, it's a personality quirk, not a required pattern... plus, men will also use the pattern in the South, and it's really not a pattern I've seen men use anywhere else I've travelled in the US.

(Strangely, it reminds me of the China/Taiwan women's-language post I did a bit ago: that "Yankee" could stand in for "China" and "Southerner" for "Taiwan" and you'd have the same setup: women's speech being women-only in Yankee/China, but men and women using it in South/Taiwan. My personal theory is that where it's hot and humid, courtesies get more oblique, speech gets slower and more musical, begging-the-agreement becomes more common. Just an observation, but so far it's borne out in a number of otherwise very different cultures. Odd, eh?)

[axelrod]

The female-speech pattern is something I have seen in women's speech in lots of places. Most of the time, the difference I've noted is that when a woman doesn't use that pattern, she's not penalized, while in the South, not using it will get you major ruffled feathers. Elsewhere, it's a personality quirk, not a required pattern... plus, men will also use the pattern in the South, and it's really not a pattern I've seen men use anywhere else I've travelled in the US.

I've heard variations on that pattern where I've lived in the US (PA and CT), but it's briefer, even brusquer in comparison to what you describe: usually just prefacing a sentence with "Would you mind -" or "could you". I'm specifically thinking of a couple bosses I've had in Philly, both born&bred in the area. So, similar, but toned down. And like you say, I can't imagine a woman being penalized for telling a subordinate "When you're done with that, do this" or "You need to do this" or whatever. In fact, I got a bit irritated that one of my bosses had a tendency to be indirect. And if you want a drink or whatever, I read it as passive-aggressive to not just *say* so and in some social situations I'll just be like "where are the glasses?" and get my own drink of water (usually with peers; if I were, say, meeting a friend's parents I'd be less likely to do it but would take my cues as to formality from them). Though it's useful to know how the expectations are different regionally. I think in my case, it's a combination of personality & culture: I really really don't like guessing what someone wants, and I like to be direct when asking for things.

[kaigou]

At work, though, that's a different situation. (I've been talking only of social situations.) When I've worked with other Southerners, the phrasing will be truncated but the politeness remains: "Do this, please," or "When you get a chance, do this." If it's a direct order, it's still buffered by "please".

In social situations, though... if someone gives me a direct order, it doesn't matter whether I would've done that anyway -- I still have the kneejerk reaction of, "what am I, your freaking servant?" The buffering clauses -- "if you don't mind," and "if you could," and so on are all ways to make it absolutely clear that you're asking a favor. Although much of the speech pattern is setting you up or guiding you towards a "yes"... it's also giving you lots of outs. It's not a direct order, so you don't have to give a direct reply.

I've never really thought about this before, but I wonder now if this may have something to do with the post-slavery era, when blacks and whites were living side-by-side by no longer of obvious up/down social status. (That is, that skin color could no longer automatically determine who got to do the ordering -- not saying the assumption wasn't there, only that it wasn't necessarily always as clear cut, maybe.) Perhaps the excessive "making it very clear this isn't an order but a favor, if you wouldn't mind" kind of phrasing was meant to prompt someone to do something... but without the overtones of "you MUST do this" that might've existed previously.

I have several books on dialects of the US, but I don't think I have any on the history of those dialects. I'd be curious to see if the begging-the-yes style developed during Reconstruction, or at some point after that, or if it existed during the Antebellum period.

As for the "my, it's so hot," example... actually, I'm with you. My grandmother was visiting when I was in grade school, and she sat on the sofa and said that, at least three times. My sister and I were like, "yes, it is hot!" And completely missed every honking clue that "goodness, makes a body parched" really meant, "OFFER ME WATER!" Later, my grandmother got mad at my mother for raising such rude children, to which Mom said, "Mother, I raised perfectly polite children, but I didn't raise mindreaders. If you want a glass, say so, and if no one offers, GO GET YOURSELF ONE."

Ehehehe. Gramma, needless to say, was NOT impressed. *eyeroll*

[axelrod]

In a lot of social situations, I'd actually expect a buffer but a minor one. A "please" or a "Would you -" But depending on tone, situation, whatever, it wouldn't be necessary.

I dunno that these avoidantly polite speech patterns would have much to do with interactions between black and white people during Reconstruction. I mean, my impression is that black people weren't seen as equals *at all* and I dare say there was a lot of resentment. And Reconstruction was brief and pretty soon a lot of black people were sharecroppers and things weren't hugely different from the way they'd been, in some ways.

I'd look for the roots being in the cultural identity of the Southern upper classes, pre- and post-Civil War, as contrasted with Northern upper classes. Southerners being genteel, Northerners priding themselves on being hard-headed businessmen. And what formed the basis for those manners, during the colonial period and after ...

Um, this is mostly supposition ...

[kaigou]

I guess that's where we'd need a historical linguist, to say whether such patterns existed in any kind of written/reported form prior to the war. I mean, the patterns are all over the post-war/reconstruction period, but a lot of that genre's fictions were actually written by non-Southerners (and could feasibly be characterized as a kind of 'colonization' process that imposes a new mythology on a subjugated people)... so finding the patterns in fiction isn't reliable at all. (And it's also possible just like the stereotype of the Southern Lady and the Southern Gentleman were derived from that fiction, so might the speech patterns be, too.)

The crazy thing is that the vast majority of the South, before the war, was... one big honking wilderness that'd only been frontier a generation before. The massive plantations were concentrated along riverfronts (easy access in/out), and once you get inland or into the mountains, there were slaves but nothing on the scale of the massive plantations. More like subsistence farming where "one to six slaves" is considered as necessary as "pot for cooking" and "one horse". (And in many cases, the white owners worked alongside the slaves, because every hand was needed.) It's still ownership, it's just ownership with different dynamics than the big-house-on-the-hill. Anyway, for all that the external representation of the South was a lot of drinking mint julep while the darkies sang, the majority of the South was pretty hardscrabble poor and stiff-backed proud despite that poverty (thank you, Scots immigrants influence). And I wouldn't really expect a lot of gratuitous politeness from a Scots-influenced culture, at least that's my guess (but as always, could be way off on that).

Maybe it's somewhere in-between, that the courtesy-levels were applied from without (as part of the myth-making) but then adopted by the subjugated people as a way to differentiate themselves, and to shove down or cover over the racial tensions? The whole 'if you ask politely enough you can ask for the most incredibly rude things, as long as you do it politely'...

I dunno, really. I've never really stopped to ask where the specific speech patterns originated. I would guess someone's studied it, but not sure where I'd go about finding such studies.

[taithe]

Hmm this is an aspect I want to research in terms of Southern myth-making. Since language is integral to Southern identity and mythology, it would be interesting to study its origins. I wonder if I could bribe a linguist on campus with some food to help me out.

[kaigou]

You might also try a historian who specializes in American History, or in Black History or literature. Frex, Tales of Conjure and the Color Line. (Though that rec may be biased since I know the author, ehehe.) Many of the southern colleges/universities have such a department, so you might try tweaking your local network to see who knows who at a Southern university, that might specialize in the Southern myth.

[kathmandu]

"Nicknames for family-place are also more common: Junior, Trey (the third), Quin/Quince (the fourth)"
*boggle* Shouldn't Quin be the fifth? Fourth would be Quart or Quad.

"Airing dirty laundry about your relationship, your family, your spouse -- that's okay, in many New England communities. Screaming fits between partners, in public restaurants and parking lots, oh, whatever."
This may be something that happens in New England, but I haven't seen it, and it is not traditional Yankee behavior. Yankees have a strong sense of privacy. We don't necessarily show negative emotions in public either, if we think it wouldn't be productive; the difference is just that we don't paste a fake smile on top.

[kaigou]

Doh, I think you're right... and now I can't remember what the nick is for IVth... oh! Duh. IVY. As in, IV. Okay I lost major points there. I feel like I should, I dunno, go cut some flowers or something to appease my grandmother's spirit. (heh.)

I think the arguing is maybe it's a regional thing -- as in city vs country? Not sure... When I was in Vermont, I didn't get the impression that a loud argument would be all that welcome, but I sure saw more than my happy share of them in Providence, Boston, Fall River, New York, Connecticut, Long Island... and in smaller towns in between. Maybe it's a coastal-new-england thing, or a not-so-rural kind of thing? (Some of those places, I wouldn't really qualify as "city" so much as maybe "extended suburbs".)

(Although, honestly, the most amazing and mortifying public argument ever had to be when the obviously rich Bostonian girl OVERTURNED the fully-loaded table onto her date as the exclamation point on the end of whatever she was yelling. That was certainly an extreme, seeing how it involved major tableware damage... but nowhere near the loudest argument I saw -- but then, that could also be partly ethnic, given the penchant I saw in Irish-, Italian-, and Portuguese-Americans to carry on at the top of their lungs, and top even that if they were actually pissed. It took me about two years to stop flinching when people talked to me, because it felt like they were yelling at me. I hadn't realized I was that accustomed to soft-spoken people.)

It's definitely true about the lack of smile, but that was one thing I actually liked about New England. If they didn't like what you said or were just neutral, they didn't smile; you only got a smile if there was genuine feeling -- compared to the places I grew up, where you got a smile pretty much no matter what (especially from women). It was almost a relief, because it meant I could get away with not-smiling, myself.

[kathmandu]

Ethnicity could be a big part of the arguing-in-public thing. I'm Anglo (which is pretty much implied by 'Yankee'), and we are the original stiff-upper-lip people.

[kaigou]

I think perhaps "urban" might play a big role, though, because the very-public-arguing I saw in Providence and Boston was almost always by people who code "white" -- from old-family Puritan to Irish to Italian (and the latter two, in some cases that's because I knew the people's surname to guess ethnicity, and sometimes because it's the defacto assumption depending on certain neighborhoods, but otherwise I would've just said 'generic Anglo', really). Given that the few public arguments I've ever seen in the South -- although, admittedly, considerably toned down but still obvious to anyone able to see the clues -- have been in urban/suburban situations, maybe the major factor is that when we live cheek-by-jowl with so many other people, we realize there's no such thing as "true" privacy and give up on trying to maintain a front.

But I think axelrod (below) is right that it's a matter of "face", and frankly, the Vermonters and New Hampshire folk I met gave me the impression that something like face wouldn't ping on their radar if they had something more important at hand. Like... appearances were valued, yes, but not superior to all other issues, if that makes sense. Like a Southerner wouldn't say, bluntly, that you did something wrong, because the appearance might be negative, while a Yankee would see it as more important to be honest than to risk appearing badly, if that makes sense?

Leastaways, that was the impression I had, as a person not-of-that-culture, and the spin I put on it. I mean, if I hadn't tried to see it as a positive behavior, I don't think I would've come home sane (ok, relative term, but still): because nearly every interaction with Yankees felt like they didn't give a damn how things looked/appeared, but were going to state their honest opinion. And sometimes that was just a little too harsh, even if what they said was truth and what I might've heard from a fellow Southerner in the same situation -- it was the overall bluntness of the delivery that made the message unbearable, lots of times.

Strange, eh. One born-and-bred Massachusetts friend told me later that she'd felt like sometimes she couldn't get a straight answer out of me about anything, and it made her even pushier... but I don't know if that's just personality (given that usually, I'm pretty damn assertive, really) or a bizarre intersection of personality and culture.

[axelrod]

I think arguing/not arguing in public can vary a *lot* depending on family. I mean, we kept all our shit private but then it was also the sort of emotionally abusive situation where everyone presents a good front ...

I suspect that the major difference, regionally, might be concern with loss of face? Like, it matters less *if* you argue in public?

I do remember, one time, witnessing a disagreement between a friend and her mother (they live in Kentucky; I don't recall if my friend's mother grew up in that state but she was raised to be a Southern belle, basically). And they apologized to me for witnessing their "argument" and I was thinking, "... what argument?" Bc that's not what I'd call an argument at all. But then, like I said, I grew up in a fucked up family with a Jeckyll&Hyde mother.

[kaigou]

And they apologized to me for witnessing their "argument" and I was thinking, "... what argument?"

Hah, I've been in that position, having a "very tense conversation" (which, if in public, I consider an argument) and feeling it necessary to apologize to friends. Another way to identify a Southerner: they'll automatically pretend like they saw nothing. Anyone not Southern will just stare at you like you've grown a second head for thinking that hissed conversation was an actual argument.

But I think you hit the nail on the head, there: that it's a matter of face. So long as you present a good appearance that doesn't ruffle the social harmony, you can get away with just about anything. But if you do something that disturbs the appearance of social harmony, then it doesn't matter whether or not you had a good reason, sometimes. It's still a loss of face.

Hell, that was my mother's biggest threat, growing up -- that if she had to punish us in public, that "everyone here will know", and that was a massive shame-inducer for both my sister and myself. When I've repeated that childhood recollection to other adults, many of the fellow Southerners will nod their heads and say, oh, yeah, that was a standard, while non-Southern-raised adults look at me like I was some sort of Stepford child or something, for actually caring what anyone else would think. Like it wasn't the audience's business, so why have any concern for them? I get that notion, but it doesn't change the fact that public humiliation -- and loss of face is a type of humiliation -- still holds huge power over me.

On the other hand, I prefer having learned that lesson, because I like being a person who doesn't force other people to witness and/or be part of anything I consider private, like arguments.

[genarti]

I suspect it's at least partly to do with the urban 'anonymity' factor, perhaps? Though I also suspect that a lot of it is the ethnic factor you mention here; what I think of when I think of New England and Yankee (in the specific sense, not the general 'north of the Mason-Dixon' sense I hear it used in sometimes) is the rural culture that, as

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I suspect it's at least partly to do with the urban 'anonymity' factor, perhaps? Though I also suspect that a lot of it is the ethnic factor you mention here; what I think of when I think of New England and Yankee (in the specific sense, not the general 'north of the Mason-Dixon' sense I hear it used in sometimes) is the rural culture that, as <user="kathmandu"> says, is very heavily influenced by British settlers way back when, and has a strong stiff-upper-lip culture. That's something that pinged me too, because of the strong Yankee sense of privacy I've noticed and been bred up with (though more on that below). Everybody may know everybody's business in a small town, but all the same you keep your private business to yourself. If people know, it's not because you yourself told them.

I've certainly seen the kind of arguments you're talking about -- though not the table-overturning, ye <i>gods</i> -- though rarely. Every time, though, everyone I notice is carefully ignoring the arguing people and pretending not to hear. The ones who aren't pretending as successfully mostly look acutely embarrassed to be an unwilling part of this scene. It is, of course, entirely possible that I tend to notice the other people who feel as I do, the ones exchanging surreptitious <i>oh my GOD how can they do this in public</i> glances.

For relevant regional background: I spent most of my childhood in Cincinnati, but with a strong heritage from my mother's family of upstate New York Scottish-derived and Pennsylvania Dutch farmers; my father's Tennessee mother and Ohio father I was equally fond of, but their influence was -- hmm, much more as individual personalities rather than a family heritage. We moved to small-town Vermont when I was in high school, though, and I rooted there much more solidly than I ever had in Cincinnati; that probably had as much to do with the culture of my particular suburb as the city at large, but still, there it is. Nowadays, I live in Boston.

Other people tend to comment "Oh, I forgot you'd ever lived in Ohio -- you seem such a Vermonter," although these are mostly non-Vermont people that have said this, so grain of salt. (For the record: Vermont has the born-and-bred (or, uh, grandparents-born-and-bred) thing too, at least to some degree. I consider myself <i>from</i> Vermont nowadays, but I wouldn't claim aloud to be <i>a Vermonter</i>. This is one of those distinctions that nobody talks about wrt specific people, and I don't honestly know how much it's actually a perception other people have of me, but it's definitely present enough for me to have absorbed the idea and integrated it into my identity, that I am not and will never be completely a Vermonter because I didn't grow up there. Especially since I've been living in Boston for the past few years, and the big city is very different from most of northern and rural New England.)

[kaigou]

Yeah, the table-turning was a real, uhm, highlight of my time in Boston. Whew! What was strange, though, was that most of the restaurant didn't even bother turning to look. Maybe at most, they registered the movement and made sure they weren't in the way, but that was about it. Another couple over on the other side, I recall, had the same cringing worried reaction as us, and we gave each other pained smiles -- "I'm not seeing this, you aren't either, right?" -- and I bet they were of similar background as us... because no one else even really blinked.

More common was just two people getting into a heated argument just about anywhere: the parking lot, in the grocery store, on the sidewalk in front of us, on the T, at the bus stop. Honestly, arguing anywhere, and in front of kids. I know full well that couples argue -- it's part of being a couple, and being an adult -- but do I really have to stand here and listen to it? Cripes.

A lot of places have the born-and-bred attitude; I was told the same thing about Rhode Island, except there most people didn't consider you a true Rhode Islander unless you'd been there at least four generations. I'm not sure the South is quite that adamant (except for maybe the Old Money parts, like the Delta or Savannah or Old Charleston, but I done my best to avoid hobnobing with that type, anyway), but still, there's usually a requirement that your parents have been raised in a place for the child to be "from" there.

Curiously, that "from" remains (ie, being from Georgia or from Vermont) even if you then spend your whole life elsewhere. At least, in the Southern perspective, that has potential to be true. One can be, say, a Oregonian, but "from" Alabama if your parents both grew up in Alabama and that's where most of your family is. If you'd spent any part of your childhood there, then you're an Alabaman, because of those family ties.

Everybody may know everybody's business in a small town, but all the same you keep your private business to yourself.

The strange thing is that Southerners seem to make great storytellers, so private business is an almost unbearable temptation. Just think of all the stories behind those doors, waiting to be told! Ehehehe.

[genre-savvy.livejournal.com]

Quick answer: You qualify as a Southerner if you were (a) born here or (b) have spent a significant enough period of time here that you sound like a Southerner. By which I mean not that you have picked up an accent, but that your choice of words doesn't remind everyone around you that you are not from around here every time you open your mouth. Born and bred, basically. ;-)

I've never been farther north than Chattanooga, Tennessee, so I'm useless at answering the other questions.

RE: arguing in public. Oh, yes. I'd have to agree with you there--and watching the fights are mortifying. I have seen a few married couples have complete breakdowns in public under the following circumstances: (a) hysterical parents degenerating into vicious personal attacks after a small child had gone missing at the rec center, (b) Yankees just passing through (in the library, no less--for shame!), (c) military families (I'm near an air force base), and (d) couples who were, shall we say, pharmaceutically enhanced. People who are sane, sober, and Southern do not generally have screaming fights in public, in my experience.

[kaigou]

Don't visit Boston, then! Or at least, bring earplugs.

I wonder: do you think the value is more on the catch-phrases and the way of framing a sentence than on any actual accent?

What I remember as a child was that accent mattered more (since lack of phrasing was indication the person had gone to school outside the South, or some other lengthy-duration elsewhere -- at least, I recall my grandmothers noting when someone was too abrupt in the way they phrased their statement-questions, despite having a local accent).

Maybe I should add another question, then: if someone (not you) has left the South for a long time and then returned, do you notice (and what do you notice) that tells you it's a returning Southerner, as opposed to a fresh-faced newcomer?

[genre-savvy.livejournal.com]

I think the phrasing is slightly more important than actual accent. Then again, my hometown is so small and boring that no one moves here unless they're air force and can't live closer to base or else have moved here to be near friends or family. No one moves in for no reason or, if they do, it's generally assumed that they have a Troubled Past and are trying to hide from it.

And a lot of people my age are actively trying to lose our accents. If you want to get a job out of state or even at the call center, you can't sound like a stereotypical redneck. My sister has a thick accent picked up from our father (a local), while my accent is nearly non-existent (picked up from my mother, who was born in Miami, moved here as a kid, and has been trying for "news anchor no-accent" ever since). Sis took a job at the call center and got a lot of grief about that accent. I only ever get "But you don't sound Southern!" from out-of-towners. It's weird.

I have a co-worker, an older gentleman, who was born and raised here, left for decades, and came back. His accent is weaker and he's more abrupt, I guess. He's sometimes a little impatient with the obligatory social niceties ("Your ma and them?"), but never rude. But then he mentions drinking pop or something and it's just so weird. Because he's local, but he isn't. (Does that make sense?)

The last three volunteers we've had were two Korean teenagers (a brother and sister) and a Chinese girl. I think all three were born in the U.S., but none of their parents were. In each case, English was their second language and none of them were born or raised in this area, but moved here as teens or pre-teens. But they picked up on the Southern phrasings and word choices, if not the accent, so it was always surprising when one of them would switch to their first language to talk to their parents or grandparents. Because they weren't locals, but they were. (Does that make sense?)

[taithe]

Makes sense to me. Please don't limit yourself to my questions. The examples you provided about the perception of locals versus non-locals is interesting and definitely something I want to note down.

For everyone else, thank you for your answers!

I'm curious as to whether or not there's tension between generations of Southerners regarding the matter of dropping an accent. Is the attempt to have a general American accent broadly accepted? Is there a push for people who stay in the South to maintain their accents? You mention phrasing is considered more important and do you think it's a result of more people trying to sound neutral?

(To anyone reading: free to answer any or none of the questions.)

[genre-savvy.livejournal.com]

I'm sure there is some tension between generations about the accent/no-accent issue, but I've never gotten any crap for it. Compared to the rest of my family, I have a very faint accent. I've gotten some light teasing for sounding "country/Southern" when I've said certain phrases I don't generally use, and I've been jokingly accused of being "proper" or a grammar Nazi because I won't use other phrases. (I'm an English major. Certain things just bug me.) If anyone in my family ever had a problem with it, the battle was fought and won by my accent-less mother before I was old enough to speak.

I'm sure that some people, especially my grandparents' age, would have massive issues with younger people trying to tone down their accents. But it is really hard to be taken seriously if you sound Southern--and here I mean accent, not phrasing. If you use a Southern-style sentence construction or regionalism and you don't have an obvious accent, someone might ask you what you mean, but they won't assume you're an idiot hick. If you use perfectly normal standard U.S. English, not a y'all or ain't in sight, and have a thick accent, people automatically assume you're an idiot hick. This insight comes from my sister, who has a thick accent and spent nearly a year working in a call center.

Incidentally, I think she was more offended by the people who asked her to keep talking because her accent was "cute" than by the people who thought she was stupid. If she kept talking, she could prove she wasn't stupid, but there was nothing she could do to stop the "You sound so cute!" people from acting like she was a toddler or pet that had learned a new trick. I assume the trick was "acting like an intelligent, civilized human being."

[kaigou]

The cute versus stupid thing... yeah. Seconding you on that one, even though no one's ever called my accent cute (which isn't surprising, since I'm rather un-cute person, but WHATEVER) -- but I hadn't ever thought about the fact that yes, being considered stupid is probably easier to correct. I mean, when you're "cute", you've been trivialized, and in a way, exoticized, such that it doesn't matter what you do.

[kaigou]

Ah, one thing in the book I recommended -- Do You Speak American -- mentioned a curious detail about Southern accents: that Southerners will code-switch more than any other dialect. Molly Ivins is a great example of someone who code-switches between Southern slang/phrasing and "proper english", ie this bit about a Texas bill being argued in the state legislature: "the delights of peein' against the back wall after a good whisky drank were limned in excruciating detail."

I've been trying to think of any time anyone in my family has made any comment about someone's accent. Hmm. Other than to peg the person's family origins, like "I hear a bit of coastal Carolina in your voice" or "Any chance your parents are from upstate Mississippi?" I can't ever recall someone getting any guff for accent, or non-accent. Except maybe when family will comment that one's accent has softened, but even then, the person with the soft accent (like myself) will soon have regained all that accent just by talking to relatives for a short bit.

I think the real emphasis is on Southern phrasing & sentence construction, and in knowing the basic courtesies: the questions to ask, the responses to give, the information to offer, and the ways one behaves -- like the whole not-arguing thing. If you've got all those, then even without an accent, more astute people will realize you're Southern, especially if you slip and say "ya'll" ... But even if they don't think/realize you're Southern, they'll still probably think you're really well-behaved or just really polite.

(Unless they're that type of Yankee that sees begging-the-affirmation as passive-aggressive. Heh.)

[tesserae]

There's like three different ingratiating maneuvers in those phrases... another overlaying of prepping-you-to-go-along speech pattern. Yankees I met just hated that construction, especially Bostonians. Dunno why it bugged 'em so much.)

Your clue here is the "setting up for agreement" part of the construction: to me, it reads as screamingly passive-aggressive, and my instant response is, "Just ask me to do xyz, don't try to manipulate me into doing it." For someone of my background (Upper Midwestern and New York City) the direct approach is the polite one.

[kaigou]

For ten years now, my step-mother has struggled with visiting the Southern relatives every holiday -- my dad is a regular visitor to see his first, second, and third cousins. Poor G, translating directly from the Swedish with what sounds good to her: "Put that on the table." Oh, my, the ruffled feathers the first year! My father had to run interference, just about wore him out, trying to convince his new wife to at least add a "please" or start it with a "could you" and G tried, but it was obvious she just didn't get why she had to coddle anyone, when it's just a damn plate to be put on the damn table. (Meanwhile, my sister and I are cracking up in the background, because it was like Absolute Culture Smash unfolding right in front of us, and all over how one asks to put stuff on the freaking table.)

I'm pretty brash (compared to what I heard growing up), but even now, I can only tone-down about as far as, "Could you put this on the table?" If someone were to say to me, "put this on the table," my instantaneous reaction would be, "What am I, your servant? Who are you to order me around?" I mean, if there's at least a please on the end, I'll live, but still. The only time you hear that construction in the South is when it's your grandmother and you've really pissed her off, that's when you get a direct order: so getting direct orders means you've screwed up somehow, or the person isn't happy with you, or you're being corrected (and public correction is a huge shame issue, right up there with arguing in public).

I think a better way to put it is that it's not manipulation -- I see the Jewish mothers I know, with their way of so adroitly mixing "put this on the table" with incredibly thick yet subtle guilt!guilt!guilt! that implies you're a bad kid who's never put anything on the table and you're driving your mother into an early grave for it -- now that's manipulation. (And it's also manipulation that doesn't work on me at all, because the mix of order+guilt just baffles me; I'm used to guilting being tied up with a smile, not a tirade.) To me, the Southern style has a goal of presenting an image of harmony, and the excessive agreement-begging is a way to remind you of that, in case you were about to fall down on the Southern job and decline/deny, in which case, it's tantamount to arguing and you don't do that in public.

Okay, so maybe it's a form of manipulation, but... it's also a really easy one to subvert. All you have to do is give a flat "no," and every Southerner in the room will freeze. For nearly every Southerner I've ever known (especially among older women*), that kind of sudden negation completely disarms them, because it's counter to the usual patterns. Their culture locks them into certain options for response (none of which include dressing you down in front of others for your disagreement), so if you're public and blunt, they have no tools to fight it. Unless you've gone too far, in which case, what's been locked up under pressure may explode and then you'll have serious damage on your hands. Southerners are awfully polite, but when the back's to the wall, not a one of them I've ever known can't get vicious.

* exception: nurses. I think there's something in a nurse's training that overrides the Southern compulsions, because my paternal grandmother would freely order everyone about, if she was focused on something and expected you to hop to it. And giving her a sulky "no" wouldn't make her eyes bulge (like my other grandmother or great-aunts), it'd make Nana dress you down right then and there. She didn't waste time on the niceties, or maybe it was just that she saw "grandchildren" as being in the same category as "candy-stripers" or something.

[axelrod]

Something I've encountered in at least two Southerners is that they only have a noticeable accent at certain times: one guy's accent showed through when he was talking about home; a friend of mine instantly developed an accent when talking to her (now deceased) grandfather on the phone while living in the Philadelphia area, and when I visited her in New Orleans (not her hometown; she's from TX) she was talking to me in what I read as "non-accented" English and then when a waitress with a noticeable accent addressed her, my friend's accent came back. I can't identify specific regional accents so idk if her accent was more NOLA with the waitress or what. I wonder if speech patterns come and go like accents, with Southerners who have spent significant portions of time outside of the South ...

This friend also said that she has to translate from her (very Southern) mother to her father, who's originally from New England and apparently still hasn't learned that when his wife says "oh no, I don't mind at all, do what you want" what she *means* "damnit right I mind, and you better not do that". So Mara is kinda bicultural like that.

[taithe]

See kaigou's comment above about code-switching. I haven't heard anyone code-switch from general American to Southern, but I imagine the effect on non-Southerners is similar to hearing a bilingual conversation. I remember reading about a tendency for people to subconsciously adapt their speech to someone else's so it's possible Southerners do this naturally and maybe sometimes even unintentionally when around others who have similar accents.

[kaigou]

Oi, it's too late at night. I am totally repeating myself, because I'm too sleepy to remember what I've said and what I meant to say!

[maire]

"Yay big" is interesting. My dialect of English is also Scots-influenced, and we have that as a fairly common phrase.

It's spelt "yea big" here, though. Same basic pronunciation, but the same word as in "yea, verily", I think.