any southerners out there: some questions

[kaigou]

This is being passed along/asked on behalf of taithe -- you can read what prompted these question in this thread (from the previous post). Slightly modified to be more universal for Southerners in general:

Who is defined as a Southerner? When not in the South, can you spot a Southerner right away or is it less obvious? If you live outside the South, do you feel like you don't/can't belong because of your Southern background? How closely do you think you match the stereotype of Southerner, and do you think this impacts how well you fit in -- or don't fit in -- when living outside the South? Alternate for those who've always lived/stayed in the South: can you identify when someone's a returning Southerner versus a newcomer picking up Southern habits? If so, what's the tip-off?

Formally speaking, "being Southern" has two-parts, or so I was always taught: born, and bred. Technically, I'm not a born-Southerner (thanks, DAD, the military guy!) because I was born in North Dakota. I'm completely bred-Southern, though, since we returned to the Deep South when I was six months old, and I lived in various places in the South until I was in mid-twenties. Beyond that, I have multiple generations in all directions who are born-and-bred Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and Mississippi, so generally... yeah, I'm pretty Southern.

Spotting Southerners... not actually that hard. If it's not the accent -- and I'd say I'm fairly good at pegging regionalisms in accents, but even if you're not, it's still a rather unmistakable accent unless it's really really soft -- then another big marker is phrases. Things like "I swan" and "what in the sam hill," are older Appalachian (Borderlands-England-derived) phrases, or calling things (especially bugs) "puppies" -- as in, "look at the size of that puppy!" when it's a big lizard or cricket. Some are more widespread now, that other areas/people have adopted, so you can't be quite as sure -- like saying "bless her heart" -- but if the person has just made an insulting statement and follows it with "bless her heart," then this nuance means they've got a clue. (So if not Southern, maybe a good friend or spouse, to learn it from.)

Another odd phrase you only hear in the rural areas of the South: "I can't tell you the way, but I could carry you there." Don't ask me where that one comes from, I haven't the faintest. (And the last four words of that sentence are another phrase-marker.) If something is "yay big," probably Southern or Southern-influenced.

Speech-patterns in women will sometimes be a give-away: "My, it's hot outside, isn't it." Delivered not as a question, but as a flat statement -- but it's one that's setting you up to agree. Southern speech patterns are big on setting you up to agree, especially female speech patterns. "If you wouldn't mind, could you put this on the table, please?" or "If it's not a bother, I'd appreciate if you put that on the table..." There's like three different ingratiating maneuvers in those phrases... another overlaying of prepping-you-to-go-along speech pattern. (Yankees I met just hated that construction, especially Bostonians. Dunno why it bugged 'em so much.)

Southern speech patterns are often circuitous, too, especially if you're falling down on your hospitality. A guest might say, "goodness, it's so hot, isn't it? Makes a body quite parched." This is your cue to offer iced tea, but the fact that anyone had to say something (even if that is incredibly oblique) means you've already messed up. It's not just an upper-class thing, but more a matter of formality. Upper-class just means the formality stays in place until you're talking immediate (parent-child) relations; lower-class means the informality ("It's hot; aren't you going to offer your uncle some tea?") can range wider, up to and including old friends.

If the person uses family-titles... probably Southern. "Cousin John" as opposed to "my cousin, John". Nicknames for family-members -- sissie (sister), bubba (older brother). For grandparents, you may hear: Daddy [surname] or Papa [surname], although sometimes it's "first name" instead of surname. Nicknames for family-place are also more common: Junior, Trey (the third), Quin/Quince (the fourth) Ivy (the fourth) and Quin (the fifth) [with thanks to kathmandu for thumping me on that one], though these aren't usually applied to girls. I've had to look hard to find other regions where family-titles are emphasized quite so much.

Beyond that... sometimes it's just mannerisms, or the progression of the conversation. Any questions about family (especially the all-powerful, "where's your family from?") and I know I'm dealing with Southern or strongly Southern-influenced.

If someone mocks your Southern-ness, they're probably not Southern (or they're connected/married to a Southerner enough to feel they can get away with such offenses, like they're part of the in-group... more questions about family may be required to determine if they're allowed such liberties). If someone mocks the non-Southerners around you, then they're probably Southern.

Outside of the South, however, most Southerners I've known do fit in -- or maybe I should say, they don't rock the boat all that much. Maybe it's due to the overwhelming social pressure that likes to kick Southerners, that causes a lot of Southerners to be either big-chip-on-shoulder, or to become a kind of quasi-zen, just flowing around the attacking force. The most resilient Southerners I've known (outside of the Deep South) do appear to achieve that flow-around, continuing being gracious and courteous... but there's a certain smile I've seen on the faces of an awful lot of Southerners, and that alone can cause me to peg a fellow Southerner without words being spoken.

It's a smile our mothers often give (yeah, many mothers do) when she's angry, or embarrassed, but doesn't want to show it too clearly: a sort of fixed smile that appears pleasant to strangers but to those in the know, boy, are you in for it when you get home. Strangers giving that kind of wide, apparently-gracious, pleasant (if somewhat vapid) smile, especially in a stressful situation, can give off the same signals to me. It's a smile that says you're eating your fury, because it's unacceptable to a) let anyone know they got to you, and b) show your anger in public, even if you didn't mind letting on.

If two people are arguing in public AND they're not in their home-town: probably not Southern. By arguing, I mean, arguing on the level of personal attacks. It's one thing to argue over whether the iron is left on, or whether the car's been fixed. But... I dunno how to put it. Airing dirty laundry about your relationship, your family, your spouse -- that's okay, in many New England communities. Screaming fits between partners, in public restaurants and parking lots, oh, whatever. (Meanwhile, my ex and I were crawling under the table, in embarrassment on the couple's behalf: couldn't they see how mortified everyone else was to know they would say such things to, and about, each other?) In every Southern community I've ever known, arguments are meant to be held away from family/friends, behind closed doors.

(The problem with extended local family is that arguing too loudly means your family will know of your troubles and then use them against you. One way or another. But then, mothers-in-law do this the world over... it's just this sotto-voco-arguing style seems to have developed as a way to try and stymie any resulting familial intrusion.)

The issue of being (or not being) a stereotypical Southerner seems to be relaxing, at least in the Deep South. Or maybe it's just that once you're not in your late teens, early twenties, the rest of the family figures you're a lost cause and maybe they should just accept that you're an Eccentric Cousin who has these crazy ideas and doesn't stick "isn't it" on the end of sentences. It's possible the pressures still exist (especially on young women) in the South, to conform to this narrow heavily-gender-informed set of behaviors. Hell, beyond that, there are plenty of pressures from outside the South to conform to the stereotype -- the whole "are you sure you're really Southern? you don't do ___" nonsense. Maybe it's just that I'm such a bastard now that no one dares try and correct me on what I can, or cannot, do, as a Southern woman.

Alright, that's my take on it. Anyone else? I'll repeat the questions rather than make you scroll up, so have at it!

Who is defined as a Southerner? When not in the South, can you spot a Southerner right away or is it less obvious? If you live outside the South, do you feel like you don't/can't belong because of your Southern background? How closely do you think you match the stereotype of Southerner, and do you think this impacts how well you fit in -- or don't fit in -- when living outside the South? Alternate for those who've always lived/stayed in the South: can you identify when someone's a returning Southerner versus a newcomer picking up Southern habits? If so, what's the tip-off?

If you don't mind taithe using your comments as possible jumping-off or consideration points for grad study, and want to contribute with your own stories/input for her questions, please feel free. If you'd prefer anonymity, you can go with anonymous here (I'm hoping that's okay, for taithe's purposes), or just PM taithe directly.

If your experience has differed from mine, especially do speak up. The South is hardly monolithic and I'm nowhere near an expert on All Things Southern, so do feel free to help me make sure no one gets that impression. Let's freely contradict each other, if that's what it be.

[see comments for additional response/questions from taithe]

Comments

Not a Southerner... but still commenting

[hollyberries]

It's interesting, given that I first learned English in the Midwest (Iowa, to be precise), and yet I seem to have picked up a number of 'Southern' speech patterns. I tend to use 'bless her' after complaining about someone (err, not that I complain a lot!) and If you wouldn't mind, could you put this on the table, please?"/"If it's not a bother, I'd appreciate if you put that on the table..." so much, it's even leaked into my Chinese. Which annoys the hell out of my parents, actually.

Also, the smile thing may not be exclusive to Southerners? I've seen it on a number of immigrants or put-upon salespeople who have to deal with uncooperative, belligerent strangers day in and day out.

[kaigou]

I've seen it on a number of immigrants or put-upon salespeople who have to deal with uncooperative, belligerent strangers day in and day out.

At the risk of putting too fine a point on it, it's a smile that is associated with people who are (or just believe themselves to be) the social-lesser in the interaction. A serviceperson whose job is to serve (ie, his/her feelings are secondary), an immigrant who is trying to follow the hidden nuances and doesn't know them (and thus is worried about cultural landmines), or a Southerner who's been taught that in the face of conflict, smile, cover, and don't let on. I guess it's just the look of someone who finds a situation highly uncomfortable, feels some of it may be their own fault, and would rather smile and smooth than face it head on. Least the parts of the South I grew up with, "facing head on" is just not okay. (For men and women, btw.)

Some of the more common speech patterns -- like 'bless her heart' (mind you, I've never heard it as just 'bless her', it's always 'bless her heart') -- have filtered into the broader culture, probably due to movies/tv... and the random email multi-recipient "cute" regional emails like "You know you're a Southerner if..." and "You know you're from Baltimore if..." -- that exposes other people to regional quirks, and thereby enters the popular usage.

The female-speech pattern is something I have seen in women's speech in lots of places. Most of the time, the difference I've noted is that when a woman doesn't use that pattern, she's not penalized, while in the South, not using it will get you major ruffled feathers. Elsewhere, it's a personality quirk, not a required pattern... plus, men will also use the pattern in the South, and it's really not a pattern I've seen men use anywhere else I've travelled in the US.

(Strangely, it reminds me of the China/Taiwan women's-language post I did a bit ago: that "Yankee" could stand in for "China" and "Southerner" for "Taiwan" and you'd have the same setup: women's speech being women-only in Yankee/China, but men and women using it in South/Taiwan. My personal theory is that where it's hot and humid, courtesies get more oblique, speech gets slower and more musical, begging-the-agreement becomes more common. Just an observation, but so far it's borne out in a number of otherwise very different cultures. Odd, eh?)

[axelrod]

The female-speech pattern is something I have seen in women's speech in lots of places. Most of the time, the difference I've noted is that when a woman doesn't use that pattern, she's not penalized, while in the South, not using it will get you major ruffled feathers. Elsewhere, it's a personality quirk, not a required pattern... plus, men will also use the pattern in the South, and it's really not a pattern I've seen men use anywhere else I've travelled in the US.

I've heard variations on that pattern where I've lived in the US (PA and CT), but it's briefer, even brusquer in comparison to what you describe: usually just prefacing a sentence with "Would you mind -" or "could you". I'm specifically thinking of a couple bosses I've had in Philly, both born&bred in the area. So, similar, but toned down. And like you say, I can't imagine a woman being penalized for telling a subordinate "When you're done with that, do this" or "You need to do this" or whatever. In fact, I got a bit irritated that one of my bosses had a tendency to be indirect. And if you want a drink or whatever, I read it as passive-aggressive to not just *say* so and in some social situations I'll just be like "where are the glasses?" and get my own drink of water (usually with peers; if I were, say, meeting a friend's parents I'd be less likely to do it but would take my cues as to formality from them). Though it's useful to know how the expectations are different regionally. I think in my case, it's a combination of personality & culture: I really really don't like guessing what someone wants, and I like to be direct when asking for things.

[kaigou]

At work, though, that's a different situation. (I've been talking only of social situations.) When I've worked with other Southerners, the phrasing will be truncated but the politeness remains: "Do this, please," or "When you get a chance, do this." If it's a direct order, it's still buffered by "please".

In social situations, though... if someone gives me a direct order, it doesn't matter whether I would've done that anyway -- I still have the kneejerk reaction of, "what am I, your freaking servant?" The buffering clauses -- "if you don't mind," and "if you could," and so on are all ways to make it absolutely clear that you're asking a favor. Although much of the speech pattern is setting you up or guiding you towards a "yes"... it's also giving you lots of outs. It's not a direct order, so you don't have to give a direct reply.

I've never really thought about this before, but I wonder now if this may have something to do with the post-slavery era, when blacks and whites were living side-by-side by no longer of obvious up/down social status. (That is, that skin color could no longer automatically determine who got to do the ordering -- not saying the assumption wasn't there, only that it wasn't necessarily always as clear cut, maybe.) Perhaps the excessive "making it very clear this isn't an order but a favor, if you wouldn't mind" kind of phrasing was meant to prompt someone to do something... but without the overtones of "you MUST do this" that might've existed previously.

I have several books on dialects of the US, but I don't think I have any on the history of those dialects. I'd be curious to see if the begging-the-yes style developed during Reconstruction, or at some point after that, or if it existed during the Antebellum period.

As for the "my, it's so hot," example... actually, I'm with you. My grandmother was visiting when I was in grade school, and she sat on the sofa and said that, at least three times. My sister and I were like, "yes, it is hot!" And completely missed every honking clue that "goodness, makes a body parched" really meant, "OFFER ME WATER!" Later, my grandmother got mad at my mother for raising such rude children, to which Mom said, "Mother, I raised perfectly polite children, but I didn't raise mindreaders. If you want a glass, say so, and if no one offers, GO GET YOURSELF ONE."

Ehehehe. Gramma, needless to say, was NOT impressed. *eyeroll*

[axelrod]

In a lot of social situations, I'd actually expect a buffer but a minor one. A "please" or a "Would you -" But depending on tone, situation, whatever, it wouldn't be necessary.

I dunno that these avoidantly polite speech patterns would have much to do with interactions between black and white people during Reconstruction. I mean, my impression is that black people weren't seen as equals *at all* and I dare say there was a lot of resentment. And Reconstruction was brief and pretty soon a lot of black people were sharecroppers and things weren't hugely different from the way they'd been, in some ways.

I'd look for the roots being in the cultural identity of the Southern upper classes, pre- and post-Civil War, as contrasted with Northern upper classes. Southerners being genteel, Northerners priding themselves on being hard-headed businessmen. And what formed the basis for those manners, during the colonial period and after ...

Um, this is mostly supposition ...

[kaigou]

I guess that's where we'd need a historical linguist, to say whether such patterns existed in any kind of written/reported form prior to the war. I mean, the patterns are all over the post-war/reconstruction period, but a lot of that genre's fictions were actually written by non-Southerners (and could feasibly be characterized as a kind of 'colonization' process that imposes a new mythology on a subjugated people)... so finding the patterns in fiction isn't reliable at all. (And it's also possible just like the stereotype of the Southern Lady and the Southern Gentleman were derived from that fiction, so might the speech patterns be, too.)

The crazy thing is that the vast majority of the South, before the war, was... one big honking wilderness that'd only been frontier a generation before. The massive plantations were concentrated along riverfronts (easy access in/out), and once you get inland or into the mountains, there were slaves but nothing on the scale of the massive plantations. More like subsistence farming where "one to six slaves" is considered as necessary as "pot for cooking" and "one horse". (And in many cases, the white owners worked alongside the slaves, because every hand was needed.) It's still ownership, it's just ownership with different dynamics than the big-house-on-the-hill. Anyway, for all that the external representation of the South was a lot of drinking mint julep while the darkies sang, the majority of the South was pretty hardscrabble poor and stiff-backed proud despite that poverty (thank you, Scots immigrants influence). And I wouldn't really expect a lot of gratuitous politeness from a Scots-influenced culture, at least that's my guess (but as always, could be way off on that).

Maybe it's somewhere in-between, that the courtesy-levels were applied from without (as part of the myth-making) but then adopted by the subjugated people as a way to differentiate themselves, and to shove down or cover over the racial tensions? The whole 'if you ask politely enough you can ask for the most incredibly rude things, as long as you do it politely'...

I dunno, really. I've never really stopped to ask where the specific speech patterns originated. I would guess someone's studied it, but not sure where I'd go about finding such studies.

[taithe]

Hmm this is an aspect I want to research in terms of Southern myth-making. Since language is integral to Southern identity and mythology, it would be interesting to study its origins. I wonder if I could bribe a linguist on campus with some food to help me out.

[kaigou]

You might also try a historian who specializes in American History, or in Black History or literature. Frex, Tales of Conjure and the Color Line. (Though that rec may be biased since I know the author, ehehe.) Many of the southern colleges/universities have such a department, so you might try tweaking your local network to see who knows who at a Southern university, that might specialize in the Southern myth.