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kaigouThis is being passed along/asked on behalf of taithe -- you can read what prompted these question in this thread (from the previous post). Slightly modified to be more universal for Southerners in general:
Formally speaking, "being Southern" has two-parts, or so I was always taught: born, and bred. Technically, I'm not a born-Southerner (thanks, DAD, the military guy!) because I was born in North Dakota. I'm completely bred-Southern, though, since we returned to the Deep South when I was six months old, and I lived in various places in the South until I was in mid-twenties. Beyond that, I have multiple generations in all directions who are born-and-bred Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and Mississippi, so generally... yeah, I'm pretty Southern.
Spotting Southerners... not actually that hard. If it's not the accent -- and I'd say I'm fairly good at pegging regionalisms in accents, but even if you're not, it's still a rather unmistakable accent unless it's really really soft -- then another big marker is phrases. Things like "I swan" and "what in the sam hill," are older Appalachian (Borderlands-England-derived) phrases, or calling things (especially bugs) "puppies" -- as in, "look at the size of that puppy!" when it's a big lizard or cricket. Some are more widespread now, that other areas/people have adopted, so you can't be quite as sure -- like saying "bless her heart" -- but if the person has just made an insulting statement and follows it with "bless her heart," then this nuance means they've got a clue. (So if not Southern, maybe a good friend or spouse, to learn it from.)
Another odd phrase you only hear in the rural areas of the South: "I can't tell you the way, but I could carry you there." Don't ask me where that one comes from, I haven't the faintest. (And the last four words of that sentence are another phrase-marker.) If something is "yay big," probably Southern or Southern-influenced.
Speech-patterns in women will sometimes be a give-away: "My, it's hot outside, isn't it." Delivered not as a question, but as a flat statement -- but it's one that's setting you up to agree. Southern speech patterns are big on setting you up to agree, especially female speech patterns. "If you wouldn't mind, could you put this on the table, please?" or "If it's not a bother, I'd appreciate if you put that on the table..." There's like three different ingratiating maneuvers in those phrases... another overlaying of prepping-you-to-go-along speech pattern. (Yankees I met just hated that construction, especially Bostonians. Dunno why it bugged 'em so much.)
Southern speech patterns are often circuitous, too, especially if you're falling down on your hospitality. A guest might say, "goodness, it's so hot, isn't it? Makes a body quite parched." This is your cue to offer iced tea, but the fact that anyone had to say something (even if that is incredibly oblique) means you've already messed up. It's not just an upper-class thing, but more a matter of formality. Upper-class just means the formality stays in place until you're talking immediate (parent-child) relations; lower-class means the informality ("It's hot; aren't you going to offer your uncle some tea?") can range wider, up to and including old friends.
If the person uses family-titles... probably Southern. "Cousin John" as opposed to "my cousin, John". Nicknames for family-members -- sissie (sister), bubba (older brother). For grandparents, you may hear: Daddy [surname] or Papa [surname], although sometimes it's "first name" instead of surname. Nicknames for family-place are also more common: Junior, Trey (the third),Quin/Quince (the fourth) Ivy (the fourth) and Quin (the fifth) [with thanks to kathmandu for thumping me on that one], though these aren't usually applied to girls. I've had to look hard to find other regions where family-titles are emphasized quite so much.
Beyond that... sometimes it's just mannerisms, or the progression of the conversation. Any questions about family (especially the all-powerful, "where's your family from?") and I know I'm dealing with Southern or strongly Southern-influenced.
If someone mocks your Southern-ness, they're probably not Southern (or they're connected/married to a Southerner enough to feel they can get away with such offenses, like they're part of the in-group... more questions about family may be required to determine if they're allowed such liberties). If someone mocks the non-Southerners around you, then they're probably Southern.
Outside of the South, however, most Southerners I've known do fit in -- or maybe I should say, they don't rock the boat all that much. Maybe it's due to the overwhelming social pressure that likes to kick Southerners, that causes a lot of Southerners to be either big-chip-on-shoulder, or to become a kind of quasi-zen, just flowing around the attacking force. The most resilient Southerners I've known (outside of the Deep South) do appear to achieve that flow-around, continuing being gracious and courteous... but there's a certain smile I've seen on the faces of an awful lot of Southerners, and that alone can cause me to peg a fellow Southerner without words being spoken.
It's a smile our mothers often give (yeah, many mothers do) when she's angry, or embarrassed, but doesn't want to show it too clearly: a sort of fixed smile that appears pleasant to strangers but to those in the know, boy, are you in for it when you get home. Strangers giving that kind of wide, apparently-gracious, pleasant (if somewhat vapid) smile, especially in a stressful situation, can give off the same signals to me. It's a smile that says you're eating your fury, because it's unacceptable to a) let anyone know they got to you, and b) show your anger in public, even if you didn't mind letting on.
If two people are arguing in public AND they're not in their home-town: probably not Southern. By arguing, I mean, arguing on the level of personal attacks. It's one thing to argue over whether the iron is left on, or whether the car's been fixed. But... I dunno how to put it. Airing dirty laundry about your relationship, your family, your spouse -- that's okay, in many New England communities. Screaming fits between partners, in public restaurants and parking lots, oh, whatever. (Meanwhile, my ex and I were crawling under the table, in embarrassment on the couple's behalf: couldn't they see how mortified everyone else was to know they would say such things to, and about, each other?) In every Southern community I've ever known, arguments are meant to be held away from family/friends, behind closed doors.
(The problem with extended local family is that arguing too loudly means your family will know of your troubles and then use them against you. One way or another. But then, mothers-in-law do this the world over... it's just this sotto-voco-arguing style seems to have developed as a way to try and stymie any resulting familial intrusion.)
The issue of being (or not being) a stereotypical Southerner seems to be relaxing, at least in the Deep South. Or maybe it's just that once you're not in your late teens, early twenties, the rest of the family figures you're a lost cause and maybe they should just accept that you're an Eccentric Cousin who has these crazy ideas and doesn't stick "isn't it" on the end of sentences. It's possible the pressures still exist (especially on young women) in the South, to conform to this narrow heavily-gender-informed set of behaviors. Hell, beyond that, there are plenty of pressures from outside the South to conform to the stereotype -- the whole "are you sure you're really Southern? you don't do ___" nonsense. Maybe it's just that I'm such a bastard now that no one dares try and correct me on what I can, or cannot, do, as a Southern woman.
Alright, that's my take on it. Anyone else? I'll repeat the questions rather than make you scroll up, so have at it!
If you don't mindtaithe using your comments as possible jumping-off or consideration points for grad study, and want to contribute with your own stories/input for her questions, please feel free. If you'd prefer anonymity, you can go with anonymous here (I'm hoping that's okay, for taithe's purposes), or just PM taithe directly.
If your experience has differed from mine, especially do speak up. The South is hardly monolithic and I'm nowhere near an expert on All Things Southern, so do feel free to help me make sure no one gets that impression. Let's freely contradict each other, if that's what it be.
[see comments for additional response/questions fromtaithe]
taithe -- you can read what prompted these question in this thread (from the previous post). Slightly modified to be more universal for Southerners in general:Who is defined as a Southerner? When not in the South, can you spot a Southerner right away or is it less obvious? If you live outside the South, do you feel like you don't/can't belong because of your Southern background? How closely do you think you match the stereotype of Southerner, and do you think this impacts how well you fit in -- or don't fit in -- when living outside the South? Alternate for those who've always lived/stayed in the South: can you identify when someone's a returning Southerner versus a newcomer picking up Southern habits? If so, what's the tip-off?
Formally speaking, "being Southern" has two-parts, or so I was always taught: born, and bred. Technically, I'm not a born-Southerner (thanks, DAD, the military guy!) because I was born in North Dakota. I'm completely bred-Southern, though, since we returned to the Deep South when I was six months old, and I lived in various places in the South until I was in mid-twenties. Beyond that, I have multiple generations in all directions who are born-and-bred Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, and Mississippi, so generally... yeah, I'm pretty Southern.
Spotting Southerners... not actually that hard. If it's not the accent -- and I'd say I'm fairly good at pegging regionalisms in accents, but even if you're not, it's still a rather unmistakable accent unless it's really really soft -- then another big marker is phrases. Things like "I swan" and "what in the sam hill," are older Appalachian (Borderlands-England-derived) phrases, or calling things (especially bugs) "puppies" -- as in, "look at the size of that puppy!" when it's a big lizard or cricket. Some are more widespread now, that other areas/people have adopted, so you can't be quite as sure -- like saying "bless her heart" -- but if the person has just made an insulting statement and follows it with "bless her heart," then this nuance means they've got a clue. (So if not Southern, maybe a good friend or spouse, to learn it from.)
Another odd phrase you only hear in the rural areas of the South: "I can't tell you the way, but I could carry you there." Don't ask me where that one comes from, I haven't the faintest. (And the last four words of that sentence are another phrase-marker.) If something is "yay big," probably Southern or Southern-influenced.
Speech-patterns in women will sometimes be a give-away: "My, it's hot outside, isn't it." Delivered not as a question, but as a flat statement -- but it's one that's setting you up to agree. Southern speech patterns are big on setting you up to agree, especially female speech patterns. "If you wouldn't mind, could you put this on the table, please?" or "If it's not a bother, I'd appreciate if you put that on the table..." There's like three different ingratiating maneuvers in those phrases... another overlaying of prepping-you-to-go-along speech pattern. (Yankees I met just hated that construction, especially Bostonians. Dunno why it bugged 'em so much.)
Southern speech patterns are often circuitous, too, especially if you're falling down on your hospitality. A guest might say, "goodness, it's so hot, isn't it? Makes a body quite parched." This is your cue to offer iced tea, but the fact that anyone had to say something (even if that is incredibly oblique) means you've already messed up. It's not just an upper-class thing, but more a matter of formality. Upper-class just means the formality stays in place until you're talking immediate (parent-child) relations; lower-class means the informality ("It's hot; aren't you going to offer your uncle some tea?") can range wider, up to and including old friends.
If the person uses family-titles... probably Southern. "Cousin John" as opposed to "my cousin, John". Nicknames for family-members -- sissie (sister), bubba (older brother). For grandparents, you may hear: Daddy [surname] or Papa [surname], although sometimes it's "first name" instead of surname. Nicknames for family-place are also more common: Junior, Trey (the third),
kathmandu for thumping me on that one], though these aren't usually applied to girls. I've had to look hard to find other regions where family-titles are emphasized quite so much. Beyond that... sometimes it's just mannerisms, or the progression of the conversation. Any questions about family (especially the all-powerful, "where's your family from?") and I know I'm dealing with Southern or strongly Southern-influenced.
If someone mocks your Southern-ness, they're probably not Southern (or they're connected/married to a Southerner enough to feel they can get away with such offenses, like they're part of the in-group... more questions about family may be required to determine if they're allowed such liberties). If someone mocks the non-Southerners around you, then they're probably Southern.
Outside of the South, however, most Southerners I've known do fit in -- or maybe I should say, they don't rock the boat all that much. Maybe it's due to the overwhelming social pressure that likes to kick Southerners, that causes a lot of Southerners to be either big-chip-on-shoulder, or to become a kind of quasi-zen, just flowing around the attacking force. The most resilient Southerners I've known (outside of the Deep South) do appear to achieve that flow-around, continuing being gracious and courteous... but there's a certain smile I've seen on the faces of an awful lot of Southerners, and that alone can cause me to peg a fellow Southerner without words being spoken.
It's a smile our mothers often give (yeah, many mothers do) when she's angry, or embarrassed, but doesn't want to show it too clearly: a sort of fixed smile that appears pleasant to strangers but to those in the know, boy, are you in for it when you get home. Strangers giving that kind of wide, apparently-gracious, pleasant (if somewhat vapid) smile, especially in a stressful situation, can give off the same signals to me. It's a smile that says you're eating your fury, because it's unacceptable to a) let anyone know they got to you, and b) show your anger in public, even if you didn't mind letting on.
If two people are arguing in public AND they're not in their home-town: probably not Southern. By arguing, I mean, arguing on the level of personal attacks. It's one thing to argue over whether the iron is left on, or whether the car's been fixed. But... I dunno how to put it. Airing dirty laundry about your relationship, your family, your spouse -- that's okay, in many New England communities. Screaming fits between partners, in public restaurants and parking lots, oh, whatever. (Meanwhile, my ex and I were crawling under the table, in embarrassment on the couple's behalf: couldn't they see how mortified everyone else was to know they would say such things to, and about, each other?) In every Southern community I've ever known, arguments are meant to be held away from family/friends, behind closed doors.
(The problem with extended local family is that arguing too loudly means your family will know of your troubles and then use them against you. One way or another. But then, mothers-in-law do this the world over... it's just this sotto-voco-arguing style seems to have developed as a way to try and stymie any resulting familial intrusion.)
The issue of being (or not being) a stereotypical Southerner seems to be relaxing, at least in the Deep South. Or maybe it's just that once you're not in your late teens, early twenties, the rest of the family figures you're a lost cause and maybe they should just accept that you're an Eccentric Cousin who has these crazy ideas and doesn't stick "isn't it" on the end of sentences. It's possible the pressures still exist (especially on young women) in the South, to conform to this narrow heavily-gender-informed set of behaviors. Hell, beyond that, there are plenty of pressures from outside the South to conform to the stereotype -- the whole "are you sure you're really Southern? you don't do ___" nonsense. Maybe it's just that I'm such a bastard now that no one dares try and correct me on what I can, or cannot, do, as a Southern woman.
Alright, that's my take on it. Anyone else? I'll repeat the questions rather than make you scroll up, so have at it!
Who is defined as a Southerner? When not in the South, can you spot a Southerner right away or is it less obvious? If you live outside the South, do you feel like you don't/can't belong because of your Southern background? How closely do you think you match the stereotype of Southerner, and do you think this impacts how well you fit in -- or don't fit in -- when living outside the South? Alternate for those who've always lived/stayed in the South: can you identify when someone's a returning Southerner versus a newcomer picking up Southern habits? If so, what's the tip-off?
If you don't mind
taithe using your comments as possible jumping-off or consideration points for grad study, and want to contribute with your own stories/input for her questions, please feel free. If you'd prefer anonymity, you can go with anonymous here (I'm hoping that's okay, for taithe's purposes), or just PM taithe directly. If your experience has differed from mine, especially do speak up. The South is hardly monolithic and I'm nowhere near an expert on All Things Southern, so do feel free to help me make sure no one gets that impression. Let's freely contradict each other, if that's what it be.
[see comments for additional response/questions from
taithe]
no subject
Date: 13 Jan 2011 01:50 am (UTC)*boggle* Shouldn't Quin be the fifth? Fourth would be Quart or Quad.
"Airing dirty laundry about your relationship, your family, your spouse -- that's okay, in many New England communities. Screaming fits between partners, in public restaurants and parking lots, oh, whatever."
This may be something that happens in New England, but I haven't seen it, and it is not traditional Yankee behavior. Yankees have a strong sense of privacy. We don't necessarily show negative emotions in public either, if we think it wouldn't be productive; the difference is just that we don't paste a fake smile on top.
no subject
Date: 13 Jan 2011 02:46 am (UTC)I think the arguing is maybe it's a regional thing -- as in city vs country? Not sure... When I was in Vermont, I didn't get the impression that a loud argument would be all that welcome, but I sure saw more than my happy share of them in Providence, Boston, Fall River, New York, Connecticut, Long Island... and in smaller towns in between. Maybe it's a coastal-new-england thing, or a not-so-rural kind of thing? (Some of those places, I wouldn't really qualify as "city" so much as maybe "extended suburbs".)
(Although, honestly, the most amazing and mortifying public argument ever had to be when the obviously rich Bostonian girl OVERTURNED the fully-loaded table onto her date as the exclamation point on the end of whatever she was yelling. That was certainly an extreme, seeing how it involved major tableware damage... but nowhere near the loudest argument I saw -- but then, that could also be partly ethnic, given the penchant I saw in Irish-, Italian-, and Portuguese-Americans to carry on at the top of their lungs, and top even that if they were actually pissed. It took me about two years to stop flinching when people talked to me, because it felt like they were yelling at me. I hadn't realized I was that accustomed to soft-spoken people.)
It's definitely true about the lack of smile, but that was one thing I actually liked about New England. If they didn't like what you said or were just neutral, they didn't smile; you only got a smile if there was genuine feeling -- compared to the places I grew up, where you got a smile pretty much no matter what (especially from women). It was almost a relief, because it meant I could get away with not-smiling, myself.
no subject
Date: 13 Jan 2011 04:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 13 Jan 2011 05:30 pm (UTC)But I think axelrod (below) is right that it's a matter of "face", and frankly, the Vermonters and New Hampshire folk I met gave me the impression that something like face wouldn't ping on their radar if they had something more important at hand. Like... appearances were valued, yes, but not superior to all other issues, if that makes sense. Like a Southerner wouldn't say, bluntly, that you did something wrong, because the appearance might be negative, while a Yankee would see it as more important to be honest than to risk appearing badly, if that makes sense?
Leastaways, that was the impression I had, as a person not-of-that-culture, and the spin I put on it. I mean, if I hadn't tried to see it as a positive behavior, I don't think I would've come home sane (ok, relative term, but still): because nearly every interaction with Yankees felt like they didn't give a damn how things looked/appeared, but were going to state their honest opinion. And sometimes that was just a little too harsh, even if what they said was truth and what I might've heard from a fellow Southerner in the same situation -- it was the overall bluntness of the delivery that made the message unbearable, lots of times.
Strange, eh. One born-and-bred Massachusetts friend told me later that she'd felt like sometimes she couldn't get a straight answer out of me about anything, and it made her even pushier... but I don't know if that's just personality (given that usually, I'm pretty damn assertive, really) or a bizarre intersection of personality and culture.
no subject
Date: 13 Jan 2011 05:13 pm (UTC)I suspect that the major difference, regionally, might be concern with loss of face? Like, it matters less *if* you argue in public?
I do remember, one time, witnessing a disagreement between a friend and her mother (they live in Kentucky; I don't recall if my friend's mother grew up in that state but she was raised to be a Southern belle, basically). And they apologized to me for witnessing their "argument" and I was thinking, "... what argument?" Bc that's not what I'd call an argument at all. But then, like I said, I grew up in a fucked up family with a Jeckyll&Hyde mother.
no subject
Date: 14 Jan 2011 04:05 pm (UTC)Hah, I've been in that position, having a "very tense conversation" (which, if in public, I consider an argument) and feeling it necessary to apologize to friends. Another way to identify a Southerner: they'll automatically pretend like they saw nothing. Anyone not Southern will just stare at you like you've grown a second head for thinking that hissed conversation was an actual argument.
But I think you hit the nail on the head, there: that it's a matter of face. So long as you present a good appearance that doesn't ruffle the social harmony, you can get away with just about anything. But if you do something that disturbs the appearance of social harmony, then it doesn't matter whether or not you had a good reason, sometimes. It's still a loss of face.
Hell, that was my mother's biggest threat, growing up -- that if she had to punish us in public, that "everyone here will know", and that was a massive shame-inducer for both my sister and myself. When I've repeated that childhood recollection to other adults, many of the fellow Southerners will nod their heads and say, oh, yeah, that was a standard, while non-Southern-raised adults look at me like I was some sort of Stepford child or something, for actually caring what anyone else would think. Like it wasn't the audience's business, so why have any concern for them? I get that notion, but it doesn't change the fact that public humiliation -- and loss of face is a type of humiliation -- still holds huge power over me.
On the other hand, I prefer having learned that lesson, because I like being a person who doesn't force other people to witness and/or be part of anything I consider private, like arguments.
no subject
Date: 13 Jan 2011 06:36 pm (UTC)I've certainly seen the kind of arguments you're talking about -- though not the table-overturning, ye <i>gods</i> -- though rarely. Every time, though, everyone I notice is carefully ignoring the arguing people and pretending not to hear. The ones who aren't pretending as successfully mostly look acutely embarrassed to be an unwilling part of this scene. It is, of course, entirely possible that I tend to notice the other people who feel as I do, the ones exchanging surreptitious <i>oh my GOD how can they do this in public</i> glances.
For relevant regional background: I spent most of my childhood in Cincinnati, but with a strong heritage from my mother's family of upstate New York Scottish-derived and Pennsylvania Dutch farmers; my father's Tennessee mother and Ohio father I was equally fond of, but their influence was -- hmm, much more as individual personalities rather than a family heritage. We moved to small-town Vermont when I was in high school, though, and I rooted there much more solidly than I ever had in Cincinnati; that probably had as much to do with the culture of my particular suburb as the city at large, but still, there it is. Nowadays, I live in Boston.
Other people tend to comment "Oh, I forgot you'd ever lived in Ohio -- you seem such a Vermonter," although these are mostly non-Vermont people that have said this, so grain of salt. (For the record: Vermont has the born-and-bred (or, uh, grandparents-born-and-bred) thing too, at least to some degree. I consider myself <i>from</i> Vermont nowadays, but I wouldn't claim aloud to be <i>a Vermonter</i>. This is one of those distinctions that nobody talks about wrt specific people, and I don't honestly know how much it's actually a perception other people have of me, but it's definitely present enough for me to have absorbed the idea and integrated it into my identity, that I am not and will never be completely a Vermonter because I didn't grow up there. Especially since I've been living in Boston for the past few years, and the big city is very different from most of northern and rural New England.)
no subject
Date: 14 Jan 2011 04:13 pm (UTC)More common was just two people getting into a heated argument just about anywhere: the parking lot, in the grocery store, on the sidewalk in front of us, on the T, at the bus stop. Honestly, arguing anywhere, and in front of kids. I know full well that couples argue -- it's part of being a couple, and being an adult -- but do I really have to stand here and listen to it? Cripes.
A lot of places have the born-and-bred attitude; I was told the same thing about Rhode Island, except there most people didn't consider you a true Rhode Islander unless you'd been there at least four generations. I'm not sure the South is quite that adamant (except for maybe the Old Money parts, like the Delta or Savannah or Old Charleston, but I done my best to avoid hobnobing with that type, anyway), but still, there's usually a requirement that your parents have been raised in a place for the child to be "from" there.
Curiously, that "from" remains (ie, being from Georgia or from Vermont) even if you then spend your whole life elsewhere. At least, in the Southern perspective, that has potential to be true. One can be, say, a Oregonian, but "from" Alabama if your parents both grew up in Alabama and that's where most of your family is. If you'd spent any part of your childhood there, then you're an Alabaman, because of those family ties.
Everybody may know everybody's business in a small town, but all the same you keep your private business to yourself.
The strange thing is that Southerners seem to make great storytellers, so private business is an almost unbearable temptation. Just think of all the stories behind those doors, waiting to be told! Ehehehe.