this is not my happy face.

[kaigou]

I have an interview tomorrow. (Nothing big there, been on the search for a few weeks now, but that's another story involving many complaints about the "hot new title" in my industry and the number of managers who seem to be renaming all sorts of non-title jobs to the title, and wasting my time in interviews.) This position is not confused (as far as I can tell, at least) about the title/definition, but it's...

Well, it's a lunch interview.

Y'know, there's a reason I use my initials on my resume and my portfolio and my online site. Not just the basics of not letting anyone have the option of assuming that because I am Gender A or Gender B that I can (or can't) do the job. But also because I've done my share of interviews-in-bars, and interviews-at-lunch, and while I'm not 18 anymore (so I doubt it's necessarily the exact same dynamics), I can't forget those lessons. Lunches are what you do with friends, and dates. You are not on a date with your potential employer, and the casual situation makes it too easy for some guys (already in a position of power via gender, and then as potential employer) to make things even murkier.

Sign me up so very not.

On top of that, I did a search for restaurants around the office's location, because I want to know what else to suggest in case the primary suggestion is Italian. (Pasta, you're great, but you attack people who eat you, and same for you, Pho.) Oh, look, it's nothing but bar food. Independently owned, but you can't tell me that Joe's Bar, Logan's Bar, and something-or-other Bar & Grill, times ten, is going to be anything other than, well, bar food. I loathe bar food. Not because it's bad, but because it's boring. Life is too goddamn short to eat bar food.

(And life is way too goddamn short to eat what American bars believe passes for Irish food. You Irish on my flist, you know I like you, but the American bar concept of Irish food leaves a great deal to be desired.)

Or we could walk the two blocks to the nearest acceptable restaurant -- a Thai place. A quarter-mile away (about two blocks and hang a right, go a block). In 101F heat. For a fucking job interview.

And then I must ask: am I going to be expected to pay for my half? Why? I didn't ask to go on this fucking lunch date. I'd be just as happy not having to walk anywhere in 101F heat at 1pm, thank you, and I'd be just fine sitting in a nice, cool, air-conditioned conference room for an hour. And I wouldn't even have to pay for the benefit of being forced to stomach bar food.

Oh! And I could do it WITHOUT HAVING TO TALK OVER THE UBIQUITOUS TELEVISION IN THE GODDAMN BACKGROUND.

I mean, I don't mind going out to eat. But if I'm going to pay for it, then I want to eat something I enjoy eating, and on top of that, I want to eat it with someone I want to be with. That list of people is really fucking short, and it does not include -- nor will it ever include -- an employer, let alone a potential employer. I am not interested in a fucking social life as part of my job. And I sure as hell don't want to be fighting to keep my attention solid, while choking down bar food, and trying to hear someone (or yell at someone) over the goddamn background noise. Is this an interview, or the equivalent of an introvert's stress test? And I'm supposed to pay for this pleasure?

I really hope I get word in the morning from the second interview with that other company. The one that -- ironically enough -- has offices within walking distance of one of the town's best sushi restaurants. I'm addicted to their sushi. But I still wouldn't go there for an interview.

Comments

[dragonhand]

I'm sorry you may have to eat bar food, but you'd better not have to pay for it!

[kaigou]

With my luck, the restaurant may end up being one with decent food... and it'll have a television pumping out CNN or daytime soaps or some other way-too-loud nonsense. I'd actually take a quiet place with mediocre food, in comparison, but I'd much rather go for NEITHER. *sigh*

[tesserae]

I just had an interview at the Starbucks on the concourse between a casino & a convention center. So loud I could barely think, and I kept having to wave at people.

Got the job, though.

[kaigou]

Congrats on the job, but still... when the interview's offsite, one thought that lurks in my head is: what's wrong with your workplace, that you don't want to meet me there? I mean, the interviewer isn't the only one doing interviewing, here. How the hell am I supposed to assess whether I want to work somewhere, if I never even get to see where it is (even in a general way) that I'd be working? Get a feel for the vibe, you know what I mean. It just feels... sketchy, along with creepy. Like it's a stealth interview, rather than walking in the front door of the place and announcing my name.

[nagasvoice]

On the surface this sounds completely inappropriate, verging on invitation to harassment. Also, my employer's official rules would consider that kind of setting totally unfair selection among different candidates. In private industry, it still strikes me as odd, but perhaps that's the only time this person has left over from other meetings. Otherwise, why do they need to see what your social manners are like? Given nervous stomach during interviews, personally I would probably avoid eating, just sip something.

[kaigou]

I don't think it's a matter of no time to eat -- as they asked about "lunch interview" and I said, I expect I may be busy until noon, and wouldn't be available until about 1pm. And got a quick response back that 1pm lunch would be fine.

Yes, it feels highly inappropriate (see also my response to Tess, above) -- but it also makes me feel like I'm being put on the spot. I never have reason to say, in a work environment, that my hearing is bad in one ear. I never work in work environments where I have to hear things over a loud and constant distraction, like a television or a loud stereo system. But to have to come up with a way to say, "could we please eat somewhere that doesn't have a television or music playing?" is tantamount to being forced to say -- before the interview has even begun -- "hi! I have a disability! and I'm even asking you to make concessions! just think of how demanding I'll be as an employee!"

Wow. I find myself filled with less and less enthusiasm as the minutes pass. Quelle shock.

[christeos-pir.livejournal.com]

<< But to have to come up with a way to say, "could we please eat somewhere that doesn't have a television or music playing?" is tantamount to being forced to say -- before the interview has even begun -- "hi! I have a disability! and I'm even asking you to make concessions! just think of how demanding I'll be as an employee!" >>

Actually, what it says to me is anywhere from "This was an imbecilic idea" to "This is really rude." But then I'm not the kind of idiot to suggest such a thing.

Team lunches are one thing. Trying to conduct an interview in an inappropriate setting while assessing the candidate's ability to field--and ask--important questions under trying circumstances is another.

[kaigou]

I may be an omnivore, but I figure, if the guy doesn't even ask ahead of time whether I'm a vegetarian or have any dietary restrictions, then that's a major flag right there. I'm not the kind of person to say something right then, but it sure would color my impression of the kind of work environment the guy would probably foster. (Not like I'd have anything else to go on, after all, if we're not even in the office.)

Especially since, now that I've checked, there aren't any vegetarian or kosher restaurants within a three-block radius.

[christeos-pir.livejournal.com]

It would be interesting if someone told them they were on a restricted diet--kosher, say--and then if they didn't get hired, sued for discrimination.

[christeos-pir.livejournal.com]

OTOH, for $80-90k, I'll eat their Bennigan's or whatever during an interview and ask for seconds. };->

[kaigou]

If they were offering a competitive salary, then I'd consider it.

But they're not, and strangely that makes me less inclined to be generous.

[kaigou]

Although, fine, I can admit it: I'm just ornery enough to demand a vegetarian or kosher restaurant, just to throw a wrench in the works. I suppose that's passive-aggressive, but it's also the reaction I have to a situation that already feels kinda passive-aggressive in some way.

[christeos-pir.livejournal.com]

Anyway (I forgot to say), I don't think it's tantamount to putting a disability on the table so much as it is saying "Sorry, but with all this racket it's really hard to follow what you're saying."

IOW, if you can't hear (or concentrate), it's not your fault.

[sharibet]

Good luck on the interview!

I share your loathing of lunch interviews. In my experience, the potential employer always pays for a candidate's lunch. If they don't, that's a big red flag.

However, my objection to lunch interviews isn't necessarily the food--it's the trial of trying to appear witty and intelligent and sane while simultaneously eating and trying not to talk with my mouth full. "Bar food," by which I'm picturing deep-fried items consumed with your fingers, doesn't really lend itself to looking poised and professional, either. Sigh.

[kaigou]

Deep-fried or not, eating with your fingers is a sensual act. It is certainly not what I would ever want to do in front of someone who is NOT either a very good friend (and understands the boundaries) or a lover (who knows s/he has permission to cross). I think that's a big part of why fingerfoods aren't professional, because we know on some level that there's more going on, in the body language and implications. It's already a nerve-wracking situation. I don't like that some people do tend to interpret "nerves" as a sign of, bluntly, being turned on (or more likely, just as a sign of "oh the person is attracted to me").

Beyond that, even if I were being interviewed by someone of the same gender, I'd still find it annoying. What the hell am I supposed to get out of the interview, to let me know whether I want to work for the company? I'm not seeing any glimpse of the rest of the environment, I'm not picking up the vibes of the place, and in all honesty I'm actually thinking: what are they trying to hide, that they won't even have me on-site?

(oh, whoops, let my acct expire and now I can't edit, damn it.)

[kathmandu]

Purely hypothetically, the first thing that comes to mind as "why won't they have you on-site" is that maybe they're screening replacements for someone they haven't fired yet. Stealth interviews would have to be conducted off-site.

My advice falls into two parts: keep a running count of the red flags, because it sounds like the list is rapidly growing; and think of the 'lunch' as props. A drink to sip while thinking what to say, and food to toy with for fitting-in and redirecting-attention purposes. Eat your real meal after, when you can relax more.

[kaigou]

The "not fired yet" is certainly an option, though it makes me just that much more leery: if they're not being above-board with their current employees, then could I really expect any honesty, myself? I know companies do it, but it still seems like a low thing to do.

I think, to some degree, if the setup specified two interviewers, then I wouldn't feel quite as... pinned. I'd also feel like I'd be able to see the dynamics between some of the people, to give me some sense, like I'd normally get watching the interviewer walking next to me through the office on the way to whatever meeting room. Here, I feel like I'm just going in completely blind. The interviewer may get something from me, but I'll be gaining nothing except possibly another restaurant to put on my "oh bloody hell, you couldn't pay me enough to ever eat there again" list.

If I can't demand kosher (since to be honest, I wasn't raised kosher so I can remember only the part about pork and... bacon, and, uhm, no cheese with bacon, or... uhm...), it's too bad the Korean place is a four-block walk. Like I said above, I'm ornery enough that if given free rein, I'd pick a place just to test the interviewer to see whether he's all that open to unusual non-American cuisine.

Overall, I'm just getting the sense that this is an interview process specifically designed to make an introvert as miserable as possible. And it's working so well, I'm already halfway to misery and it's still twelve hours before the actual interview! Color me impressed.

I think I may have to take a second shower before I go to bed. The sarcasm is dripping off me pretty heavily.

[soukup]

You could always try being the shining example of forthrightness and simply asking your interviewer up front why you aren't being shown your future workspace. That's a logical question to have, and even phrased very politely it'll make it quietly obvious to him that this was a weird way to do things.

OTOH, if you're feeling annoyed enough about this whole thing, you could always eat before you arrive and then when he asks why you aren't ordering any food, very sweetly explain that you have dietary restrictions. /passive-agressive.

[kaigou]

I asked the recruiter, instead, since that seemed like a good halfway point (and to express my worries, before the interview). Her response: "that's a really good question." *sigh*

I think it's part of some kind of holdover from the dot-com days, like, "we're a flat company! we make joint decisions! we're all about hte casual!" ... which is fine and everything, except that we all saw exactly what happened to the dot-coms, so don't blame me if I don't hold my fucking breath believing that flat hierarchies that make joint decisions and have beer parties are the ultimate key to a company's success.

*eyeroll*

[soukup]

(Oops, didn't notice what time it was before I commented. Here's hoping it went well, anyway!)

[brainwane]

Wow, I forgot or never knew that some people felt quite so vociferously against lunch interviews. As a hiring manager, I'll adjust my future thinking accordingly. I would wish that a person who didn't want to do a lunch interview I'd proposed would say something like "that doesn't work for me, can we do [VERY NON-LUNCH times] instead?" But I shall keep an eye out for people trying to say "pleeeeease not lunch" more subtly, as you did in your "I expect I may be busy until noon, and wouldn't be available until about 1pm" reply. After all, the interviewee is in a position of less power and may feel too constrained to speak up.

And of COURSE the hiring interviewer should pay.

[kaigou]

It is not that I wouldn't expect to socialize with colleagues, but there's a big difference between a social situation with colleagues because you choose to be there, and a social situation -- like this one -- where you have no choice. I don't know this guy. I don't know if he's going to misread to take liberties or if he won't even think to ask whether I even like hamburgers or pizza or whatever. I sure as hell don't want to be stuck pretending to be socially happy when it's a situation where I want to be able to concentrate, focus on the other person, and not on whether my fucking salad is attacking me.

Like I keep saying, it might make a slight difference (or tone some of this down) if I knew the interviewer was my gender. But he's not, and this is dredging up memories of being asked to interviews in bars and restaurants by IT managers who clearly had no intention of taking me seriously as a candidate, but did their best to make it social. (Aside: I finally figured out that if the guy was relatively ugly, he had no interest in hiring me, he just wanted to be seen at the local bar with some chick, and this was the only way it might happen. UGH.) I just feel like an immediate and casual acceptance of "lunch dates for interviews are okay now" is completely disregarding all the times I was younger and lunch dates were only for people you didn't take seriously as an interviewee, and it's really hard for me to forget that, because those were humiliating experiences in my youth.

Beyond that, there's entire landmines that make lunch dates seem like the worst possible choice for interviews. My diet's restricted right now because I'm trying to get healthy and lose weight. The last thing I want to do is eat restaurant food (hence the utter dislike of eating bad food, because I don't want to blow my diet on food that isn't even very good!)... but hell if I want to discuss that with a complete stranger and leave myself open to being judged. It's not some hiring person's business whether I can't eat carbs or need to avoid sugar or whether you're going to disregard my concerns because I don't "look fat" to you. What if you pick a restaurant with a television with the sound off, but it's right over your shoulder? My ADD is going to go HAYWIRE from having that in my peripheral vision. For intense situations like interviews where I need to focus on you alone, I do just fine in a small, visually-limited conference room. In a restaurant? Not so good at all, and the busier, the harder it is to focus. Maybe someone else would come alive and be all vibrant in that situation, but I won't, and I feel like I'm being punished for being an intensely private person with ADD and a hearing problem in one ear who also dislikes mandatory social situations. None of that affects how good I am at what I do, but all of it affects how well I can carry on a conversation in a noisy bar with a stranger. This is why I don't work in bars!

...my suggestion? If you like lunch interviews, offer it, but also offer the option of another time as non-lunch. Like, "We could do meet at noon and do lunch, or meet at 2pm at the office." I would've jumped at 2pm, and everything would be fine -- and you wouldn't be left wondering whether you're interviewing my kindred spirit who was actually up late spitting nails about being trapped in a social situation unwillingly.