hunka hunka burning love... kind of.

[kaigou]

A series of thoughts I've been turning over in my head while I scrape popcorn from the ceiling, tear down the ugly ceiling beams, cover the paneling with drywall, plaster and prime and paint, and so on: it keeps the hands busy and frees the brain to ponder at length. Okay, pondering has reached maximum capacity and now I am at point of please to be getting additional inputting.

Here's the premise: you've met someone, and are solidly falling-in-love -- whether that be a love-at-first-sight or gradual drift from friends into something deeper. You might safely say that this person is "the one" for you; the first flush of lust/infatuation has become the brink of something longer-term.

Alrighty, now let's say someone you trust -- or at minimum has authority satisfactory enough to you -- explains that you are not, in fact, in love, and your experience/emotions are due to A) a magical spell, B) a drug/medicine, or C) due to tagging an ineffable instinctual landmine. (The last being inescapable/unstoppable akin to non-autonomous functions like heart-beat and breathing; I leave it open to your interpretation whether the landmine could have been avoided in the first place.) Those are the three options for externalities, with me so far?

What do you think would be the one aspect of your relationship that:

1a. Would prove to you that your relationship would continue -- as true love (forgive the romanticism but what else to call it?) -- even if A/B/C were removed from the equation?

1b. Could not be duplicated/mimicked by A/B/C and therefore by its existence indicates your love is real?

(I break those out because A/B/C may only inculcate but without damaging upon withdrawal: much like potting soil may boost a seed's preliminary growth but that at some stage the plant could survive on sun, water, soil without additional fertilizers.)

2a. Would the means make any difference in your reaction -- that is, whether the in-love is thanks to magical whammy, misfired neurons, or survival instinct gone haywire?

2b. Which of the three would be most offensive as a means of manipulation (or is it all-the-same)?

2c. Which would you consider most easily forgiven? (eg, "I can accept drugs but if you magic on me, that's way worse".)

3a. Would it make any difference if your in-love state were caused by a specific person's actions (as opposed to honest mistake/accident like tripping a long-dormant spell or drinking the wrong medicine)?

3b. Which would be worse: to learn it was purposeful, or that it was purely accidental?

4a. If you knew it was purposeful but didn't know the perpetrator's identity would not-knowing be better (or worse)*?

4b. Would you try to find out the perpetrator's identity, anyway?

4c. What if the perpetrator were the person you'd fallen in love with?

As an addendum to that last one, I find myself applying #1 and #2 specifically to the situation upon learning the falling-in-love was due to artificial causes. Would even determining that it's 'true love' be irrelevant, due to considering such acts/intentions completely unforgivable?


* the 'better or worse' idea could be applied to your sense of integrity, or to your faith/trust in the relationship... it could be that not-knowing assuages your sense of autonomy yet also causes you to doubt whether this person is really the one for you.

Comments

[foodanimechicki.livejournal.com]

1a. Would prove to you that your relationship would continue -- as true love (forgive the romanticism but what else to call it?) -- even if A/B/C were removed from the equation? Now I can totally be misinterpreting the question all-together, but I think compatibility would, for the most part, prove that the “true love” could continue. And when I say compatibility, I’m thinking more along the lines of do they share common interests? Are there points where there is disagreement? It is impossible (at least when I tried it) to have a good relationship with somebody exactly like you. There is a definite need to have something to disagree on, if only because it will make things you DO agree on that much better. “True Love” may not be as strong, in fact it may be that fledgling “first flush of lust/infatuation” all over again, but there is definitely a base to work on instead of A/B/C.

1b. Could not be duplicated/mimicked by A/B/C and therefore by its existence indicates your love is real? This may be akin to C, but I know that when I look at my man, even after three years together, I still get that little hitch in my heartbeat. Obviously I’m not under a spell, and I don’t take drugs/medicine except for a headache ^_^ but I’m not sure how else to explain what I want to say…=(

2a. Would the means make any difference in your reaction -- that is, whether the in-love is thanks to magical whammy, misfired neurons, or survival instinct gone haywire? I don’t believe it would. I don’t think I’d be very happy knowing that somebody tinkered with my emotions, and I’d probably be in denial for a bit. But emotions are a hard thing to control, and if I’ve felt a certain way about somebody, even under an influence, I don’t think I’d be able to change the way I thought about them.

2b. Which of the three would be most offensive as a means of manipulation (or is it all-the-same)? This is all the same to me. Manipulation is manipulation, whether it be chemical, magical, or physical.

2c. Which would you consider most easily forgiven? (eg, "I can accept drugs but if you magic on me, that's way worse".) Hmmm….I don’t think any one is easier to forgive than the other. Like my answer to 2b., manipulation is manipulation no matter which way you spin it.

3a. Would it make any difference if your in-love state were caused by a specific person's actions (as opposed to honest mistake/accident like tripping a long-dormant spell or drinking the wrong medicine)? No, because it happened. Knowing which one it is is inconsequential when it comes to making a difference.

3b. Which would be worse: to learn it was purposeful, or that it was purely accidental? I think that it being purposeful would be worse, IMO. It means that somebody is manipulating me at their will, instead of fate deciding (for lack of a better term).

4a. If you knew it was purposeful but didn't know the perpetrator's identity would not-knowing be better (or worse)*? It would be worse. Kind of like going to surgery without seeing who the doctor is.

4b. Would you try to find out the perpetrator's identity, anyway? Yes, because if someone has their hand in my life, I’d want to know who it is.

4c. What if the perpetrator were the person you'd fallen in love with? This is the only thing that would make a difference with the “True Love” feeling. Knowing that he had manipulated my feelings unnaturally without my consent would fizzle any feelings I had.

As an addendum to that last one (edited to fit in comment window :-P) completely unforgivable? I don’t think “True Love” could survive after this…it’s such a huge violation of trust that it would eat away at any emotions that could naturally appear, and there will always be a thought in the background, “are these MY feelings, or is it something else?”

On a side note: I hope that the popcorn scraping is going well!

[askerian]

Do I still find the person's sense of humor appealing? If I examine their beliefs objectively, is there nothing that makes me gag? I'd reexamine the relationship and whether the other person lied to me or presented themselves as better than they really are, for sure, and I'd be damn paranoid for a while. XD The big one is -- was it deliberate on the part of the person I now love? Are they trying to manipulate me into something via my feelings?

Magical spells and drugs given by lover-person would give me the creeps and I wouldn't feel it's coming from love but from obsession and desire to own me, and fuck that noise. It would bring to mind very strong date-rape associations, I think, except worse in a way because the person made my own mind and feelings betray me. Even if I still FELT I was in love with that person I would reject those feelings violently and refuse to act on them, probably go out of my way to cut off all contact at least until I can get my bearings again.

Instincts, now, those are more likely a part of me, just a deeper one than conscious thought, and there must be something in that person that made my deeper self need them this much, so I'd at least think on it more neutrally/positively.

If someone else was the guilty party I would probably put the lovey-dovey stuff on hold until I can find them and understand their motives. If they did this to me, there must have been a reason. Being in love might feel nice, but what if it's a trap of some kind.

If it was to manipulate me into something -- fuck that noise. I'd get away. If the person I love was a victim too, I'd want to stick close to them, but I still wouldn't want a real relationship before we deal with the issues of the feeling not having come naturally.

If... I don't know, the perpetrator wanted their friend to be happy, I'd still want to be with lover-person but there would be serious levels of "it's him/her or me" or if the guilty party is a hapless idiot then "see them if you must but don't even remind me they exists" for a long while. I'd forgive idiocy a long time before "I KNOW you'll thank me later." I could be able to continue having a relationship.

Spell or drugs, I'd be angry regardless, because it's taking away part of my free will. It depends how permanent it would be, too. You can argue that falling in love is a matter of hormones but at least the infatuation eventually fades and the relationship can continue or not on its own merits. Craving someone's presence for the rest of my life or being prevented from entertaining thoughts of other people would make me resentful. The only way to lessen that would be if the person actually is a good match, but even then there would be lots of doubts and psychoanalyzing the relationship at first.

I'd have a lot less problems with a dormant instinctive reaction, because there would be a sense of "we match on a deeper level than superficial personality." Though I'd have a problem if we match deep down but his personality gets on my nerves/his conscious beliefs are abhorrent/he's some kind of "nice guy"/he thinks that means ownership and has no respect for me. In that case I'd rather live my life alone and lonely than with him.

[askerian]

... Why did I reply to you. Gah. Sorry XD;;

[foodanimechicki.livejournal.com]

^_^ No prob! =P lol!

Question 1

[white_aster]

Mmmm crunchy psychology. I'll give it a go!

What do you think would be the one aspect of your relationship that:
1a. Would prove to you that your relationship would continue even if A/B/C were removed from the equation?
1b. Could not be duplicated/mimicked by A/B/C and therefore by its existence indicates your love is real?

Do you mean something that I would feel ("he makes my heart flutter and I constantly want to be near him") or something that happens IN the relationship but involves the beloved reacting to me ("we laugh at the same jokes and listen when each other talk")?

If the former...well, I don't trust feelings, really. I know how they can be twisted, can be overblown by hormones and dependence and whatnot. Nothing _I_ felt would convince me that the love was really real or likely to persist without Love Ray help. If the latter, well, the treating someone with respect and listening when they talk and wanting to comfort them would be core parts that would make me convinced that we were in love, because that's what people in love DO.

Question 2!

[white_aster]

2a. Would the means make any difference in your reaction?
If the person telling me this was an expert in my mind (if I'd seen them do magical things and I believed in magic, or if they were a doctor and they'd done blood tests on me and found this drug), then magical whammy and drugs wouldn't make much difference to me. Still some outside influence affecting me.

The survival instinct I'd have a harder time listening to someone else about. I don't know that I'd ever believe psychology to be a fine enough science for me to believe that my love was because of this one specific thing, rather than just...love. I'd treat that explanation with a lot more skepticism, because my response would be, "...but how do you KNOW? SHOW ME UR EVIDENCE."


2b. Which of the three would be most offensive as a means of manipulation?
I'd have to say that drugs would be most offensive to me. Surprisingly...it has to do with the amount of effort they have to put into it. I'm assuming something about the magical system and instinctual triggers involved, I guess: ie, that the person has to put in some kind of energy to make the spell/potion go, and that the instinctual triggers take some amount of guile or preparation to make go off correctly. Thus, those two at least make the person WORK for me, require that they value me falling in love enough to put something of themselves into it.

Drugs, on the other hand (unless, say, they are tailor made and the person had to design them for me him/herself...or perhaps if they were really expensive and the person was not naturally rich and had to save up for them or something), don't require any work on the person's part.

One makes me "expensive" to that person, while the other makes me kind of "cheap", to get the same effect. ...if that makes ANY sense. ._.


2c. Which would you consider most easily forgiven?
If this is being done without my consent, none of them are better than any others. The actual METHOD doesn't change the fact that this person is trying to manipulate me.


3a. Would it make any difference if your in-love state were caused by a specific person's actions?

Is deliberate whammy different from accidental whammy? Certainly. One of them means that I've got someone dangerous (I count someone who will try to manipulate me as dangerous) that I need to deal with. If it's NOT the person I'm in love with, then that other person and I need to have a serious talk, because I would be horrifically pissed at them.


3b. Which would be worse: to learn it was purposeful, or that it was purely accidental?
Learning that it was purposeful, because I'd then have to deal with the person who'd done it, and that would likely be messy and/or dangerous. Accidental, well...it's not like anyone falls in love ON PURPOSE.


4a. If you knew it was purposeful but didn't know the perpetrator's identity would not-knowing be better (or worse)*?
Not-knowing would be worse, for the reasons above. I'd feel I had an enemy around but didn't know who they were.


4b. Would you try to find out the perpetrator's identity, anyway?
Yep. It'd worry me otherwise.


4c. What if the perpetrator were the person you'd fallen in love with?
That would be incredibly messy and likely depend on the state of our relationship. I might forgive them. Maybe. If they talked a good talk ("I was terribly in love with you but didn't know how to make you see me...") If the Love Ray could be broken (ie, it only provided a push, not constantly KEEPING me in love no matter my own free will), that break of trust quite possibly could make me fall out of love with the person. Trust is important to me, and that this person is a manipulating liar is a huge black mark against them. But, if I'm kept artificially in love by what they're doing, then the love might make me forgive them. Love makes people do dumb things.

[ivory-and-horn.livejournal.com]

I am totally writing this from the POV of a young whipper-snapper who hasn't fallen in love yet. So um, answers are totally a thought exercise.

What do you think would be the one aspect of your relationship that:

1a. Would prove to you that your relationship would continue -- as true love (forgive the romanticism but what else to call it?) -- even if A/B/C were removed from the equation?

If the other person (let us call them the SO, for convenience) weren't under the control of A/B/C then the proof, I think, would have to come from myself--I'd have to be reasonably sure I wasn't under the influence first (which I guess, with A or C, may not be possible). After that, I...don't know. I'm not sure what would be strong enough proof to myself that would erase all doubt. I'd always have a little bit of doubt in the back of my mind. That being said, it'd probably have to be something drastic, something I definitely would never do under any other circumstance other than loving SO.

1b. Could not be duplicated/mimicked by A/B/C and therefore by its existence indicates your love is real?

I honestly don't know. Even if there was something...I think I'd doubt it.



2a. Would the means make any difference in your reaction -- that is, whether the in-love is thanks to magical whammy, misfired neurons, or survival instinct gone haywire?

I suspect my first reaction, whatever the cause, would be disbelief. Beyond that...

The first two would be slightly easier to bear, I guess, in that the cause is external and therefore that means any outside control of my person by another could be ended (even if this means ending the relationship). They'd probably provoke more anger in me than fear.

The third is much scarier, because it seems to me that it'd bring the possibility that I'm doing it to myself, which then begs the question of whether or not the relationship could be truly said to be induced -- it might not be born out of love, but it's still the result of my own actions/emotions. Either way, the thought that something would be awful enough that the only way to survive was to make myself fall in love would also be pretty scary.

I'm not sure which one would make me feel worse for the hypothetical SO. Either way, the person gets to deal with a relationship that may be grounded on false pretenses, assuming the relationship was two-sided.

2b. Which of the three would be most offensive as a means of manipulation (or is it all-the-same)?

C would be more terrifying but not necessarily offensive, unless the instinct was intentionally provoked by an outsider. In which case C would more or less hold the same offense factor as A and B. So...I don't think there's any difference. All three methods would be based on forcing me to feel something I would not be naturally inclined to feel.

2c. Which would you consider most easily forgiven? (eg, "I can accept drugs but if you magic on me, that's way worse".)

Tough to say. It would depend on the circumstances and intent entirely -- if it was magic, it may have been an honest mistake, which is more forgivable than drugs. It's harder to "accidentally" slip love-inducing pills into someone's food. As for the third...I'm not sure. It would feel like a more fundamental violation of my self, I think, and that might be harder to forgive no matter the circumstances or intent.

[ivory-and-horn.livejournal.com]

3a. Would it make any difference if your in-love state were caused by a specific person's actions (as opposed to honest mistake/accident like tripping a long-dormant spell or drinking the wrong medicine)?

Hell yes. Mistakes are at least understandable, and at least logically forgivable (even if I might not be able to actually bring myself to forgive). Deliberately forcing it is both cruel and violating to me, and the SO (again, assuming two-sided relationship).

3b. Which would be worse: to learn it was purposeful, or that it was purely accidental?

Tough to say. Purposeful would bring questions of who would be powerful/smart/sneaky enough to induce the love, and then bring the fear of whether or not they could or would do it again -- and how I could prevent that, or if preventing a reoccurence would even be possible.

And accident...an accident would bring relief, at least that there was a very low chance of it reoccuring. But at the same time, it would be very, um, shaking? to learn that, because...well, I would assume being in love would be pleasant and full of wonder, and to learn that it was all the result of someone making a mistake would shake my trust in...uh...love. And the person who caused it.

Purposeful seems to inspire more fear, but accident seems to inspire more emotional fallout. I don't know which I would consider to be worse.



4a. If you knew it was purposeful but didn't know the perpetrator's identity would not-knowing be better (or worse)*?

On the one hand, knowing might assuage some of the fear that would come of knowing that it was purposeful, because at least you'd have a direction to be afraid in, as opposed to just generally fearful in all directions, if that makes sense. I think...not-knowing might be worse, because I'd feel like a target, never knowing if the perpetrator might strike again or from where. I'd have no way to take any precautions and feel like they were working, or feel like I was doing something about the whole situation. Sitting around and feeling useless and afraid would be worse that doing something and feeling afraid, I think.

4b. Would you try to find out the perpetrator's identity, anyway?

To the best of my ability, I guess. Which may not be much ability, but still. I think I'd try, if only to feel like I was taking some kind of action rather than being a sitting duck.

4c. What if the perpetrator were the person you'd fallen in love with?

End it and leave ASAP, as far as possible. I wouldn't want to even attempt a relationship with someone who felt forcing someone to fall in love was any shade of okay. Guilt and apologies would not change this, no matter how profuse.

Of course, I might not even have time to object before whatever caused the "true love" was applied to me again...

As an addendum to that last one, I find myself applying #1 and #2 specifically to the situation upon learning the falling-in-love was due to artificial causes. Would even determining that it's 'true love' be irrelevant, due to considering such acts/intentions completely unforgivable?

Whether or not it was irrelevant, I might still try, if only out of immediate denial that what I was feeling was induced...but in the end, I don't think the relationship would endure, whatever conclusion I came to. I would never trust my own feelings, and in the case of 4c and supposing I got away, would never trust the SO either.

[mikkeneko.livejournal.com]

I don't really have any strong personal feelings on the subject, but I feel like quoting one of my favorite sections from Lois McMaster Bujold's Paladin of Souls.


"Still playing with flies?" she inquired softly. "I saw that trick. No more, please, or I shall report you to the divine."

He blushed. "It was a good deed. Besides, I wanted to please Liss."

"Hm." She hesitated. "Take my advice, and do not use magic to court her. Most especially, do not yield to the temptation to use it directly to induce her favor."

By his embarrassed grin, he knew precisely what she implied, and this wasn't the first time the notion of some sort of aphrodisiac spell had crossed his mind. "Mm."

Ista's voice dropped further. "For if you do, and she finds out, it will destroy her trust not only in you, but in her own mind. She would never again be sure if a thought or feeling were truly her own. She would be constantly halting, second-guessing, turning about inside her head. Madness lies down that road. It would be less crippling and more loving if you should take a war hammer and break both her legs."

[foodanimechicki.livejournal.com]

I love that quote! I just checked the synopsis, and this (plus it's first and third book) are getting added to my wishlist! *end off-topicness* XD

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I am--having a lot of trouble with this. Hrm.

1a. Only the removal of A/B/C and then seeing what happens next, I think.

1b. Once the magic (or whatever) is in play, I suspect I begin to doubt every: I'm not sure I'd believe in any such aspect.

I would, though, most likely believe in the development of patterns and understanding that could forge love that would survive and thrive after the removal of the magic (or whatever) that kickstarted it--because I think that's basically what love is. So it's quite possible that I wouldn't see a love born out of magic (or whatever) as any less "real" than love created sans magic. But I do think I'd need to see it still functioning without the magic. I know this is probably contradictory, but it's what I've got.

2a&b&c. Misfired neurons and survival instinct gone haywire would be biology, so I suspect I'd find that less upsetting than something artificially imposed.

3a. Big-time yes. I'd be angry at the other party if they did it deliberately (or carelessly) and angry at the situation if it was an honest mistake and we were in it together, as it were.

3b. The fact of the situation is no worse one way or the other, but I'd probably handle it more poorly if it were deliberate, likely making the situation worse.

4a. Would drive me stark raving mad.

4b. Oh, yes.

4c. Assuming it wasn't an honest mistake? Hell. To. Pay. This would most likely be unforgivable. (Because I'm not interested in being with someone who's not interested in protecting my free will, and because I figure anyone who sees forcing another person to love them is probably way more in need of serious therapy than a serious relationship.)

[vcmw]

Haven't read replies above yet (treating it a bit like a poll) so forgive duplication.

1a.
Probably two questions:
i) Am I better person towards self and non-lover others when I am with this person?
ii) I tell this person about my discovery of the spell/drug/landmine. How do they react? Do they promise to love me whether or not this is true? Deny that it could be true? Or aver that it is true and that this is better?

If the answer to i) is yes, I'm a better person to self/others,
and the answer to ii) is that they tell me they'd love me whether or not this whammy happened, then I would have faith in the relationship continuing once the whammy was removed.

1b.
Do I love the person both when I am with them and when I am not with them in equally intense but personally variant ways? This may be too me-specific, but I would assume: a) that a magical effect would vary depending on proximity to person (either stronger or weaker) but not vary in type, b) that a drug effect would not vary in type or intensity as I was with them/away from them (which would be suspicious to me) [I'm assuming that the drug there is being administered to me. If it's being administered through the other person, then of course it would act more like c)], c) that an instinctual response would be powerful when I was with them but very faint and somehow odd feeling when I wasn't with them.

2a.
i) magical whammy - would want to know if it was on purpose or not. some people ooze attractiveness or hit your buttons for near psychic-magic levels of same and it's not necessarily their fault. Other people know better and could not do it if they wanted. If it's a third party magic, then obviously not the lovers fault. ii) misfired neurons. This would disturb me as a loss of personal internal control to something I would have an [unrealistic culturally based] expectation of self-control over. iii) survival instinct - no judgement from me. we're already wired with so many weird survival mechanism attraction things that it would seem just a high/low point on an existing scale.

2b.
The drug would probably be most instinctively offensive to me on the assumption that it couldn't have happened by accident or confusion.

If that presumption was proven wrong by in story events, that could be a whole different argument.

2c.
Accidental magic, because sometimes we just don't know yet, Then instinctive response stuff, again if other person just didn't know. If the lover knows ahead of time and doesn't warn the other person, all three become equally difficult to forgive for me.

3a.
Yes. If someone did it on purpose that would be unforgivable. And possibly require some kind of revenge.

3b.
To learn it was purposeful would be worse. To learn it was accidental but that the person had done it before and made no attempt to avoid a repeate accident would be worst.

Stupid carelessness is worse than deliberate evil because the person can't be reasoned with or accounted for.

4a.
Not-knowing would be worse. Doubt would damage relationships.

4b.
Probably if at all possible.

4c.
Oddly, I don't notice till we hit 4c that that isn't the automatic assumption. I answered all the questions until 4 with the pretty steady assumption that the lover had done it.

Answering addendum - I can think of many situations where a third party has previously (and not with intent to make me fall in love) altered the person I fall in love with either chemically or magically so as to create a change in them that would force me to love them. This would make the person's action on me (since involuntary) forgivable.