nuances of greetings
14 Jan 2011 12:37 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kaigouI am completely baffled, because here's a language for which no one gives subtitles.
In jdramas, I've seen people bow when they greet, when they depart, when they apologize, and when they congratulate. Often it's multiple bows in the same space of time, such as bowing in greetings, to which the other person bows, and then there's a response bow. (This got parodied wonderfully in a short segment in the first episode of the kdrama, Coffee House.) From CP and Japanese friends, I have some understanding of the basic etiquette of bowing... but it's not doing me much good in understanding the nuances when I'm watching kdramas. At least, I can't just assume the two correlate, because when you deconstruct kdrama bows, the details and style are different -- enough that I'm not willing to just take it for granted that they mean the same or should be applied/understood the same way.
In kdramas, the bows seem to be for significant social distance -- when someone's your elder, when someone is your boss or higher, when someone is of a greater social standing, and especially when it's a woman to a man. The bow is rarely returned, not even marked as a nod.
For really important things like apologies, the kdrama bow is deep and held, otherwise it seems to consistently be a rapid drop-and-raise but still rather deep. The head leads in the downward movement until the upper body is parallel with the floor, then the shoulders lead in the upward movement as the person pops back upright. Sometimes it'll be several of those repeated in fast succession.
In jdramas, the head doesn't lead, the shoulders do. In fact, many of the more casual (greeting, departure) bows seem to be two-part. The torso comes forward to maybe a 45' angle, but the head only tips forward just a bit, and frequently the head is almost tilted. It's almost like the head bows a little sideways, to keep the other person in the line of sight, and in some cases, the angle of the torso also appears to twist or angle just a little, so eye contact isn't broken. Only once the torso is at its greatest angle does the head move, into a short or deep nod to echo the torso's movement. It's a very dignified motion, and the head-movement being last makes that echoing nod feel almost like the deliberate period at the end of the sentence-bow.
For jdrama really formal (ie apology) bows, the shoulders lead but the head, again, is on a separate line, so the chin remains up until the torso is parallel with the floor, and then the head tilts down with a sharp, delineated movement. What made me realize the difference is that in jdramas, when it's a deep bow for apology, the hair doesn't flip back or forwards until the bow is almost completed, because the head is held somewhat steady, then the chin goes down abruptly and the hair swings forward, in some cases covering the person's face.
In kdramas, the rapid up-down-up-down apology bows make the hair swing back and forth with the movement. I've also noticed that while jdramas sometimes show truncated bows -- only a slight lean forward of the shoulders, with the head-tilt emphasis indicating that it's an abbreviated, less-formal bow -- but kdramas rarely do a truncated bow.
Or, at least, it's harder to catch because it goes by so fast, when it does happen. The chin drops to the chest, and then the entire torso swings down with a quick lean forward, lean back. The face remains downcast and is only raised again once the torso is back to being fully vertical. That truncated, less-deep bow appears most common in kdramas among young women with male friends, and retail workers to customers.
Between female social equals (in age and status), bowing only seems to happen for apologies (not greeting or departure). Most apologies get one or two rapid bobbing-bows, and the deep held-bow is only pulled out for really big things, like stealing someone's boyfriend or wrecking someone's car.
I can't recall male social equals bowing to each other, except in cases of major apology; the men, from what I recall, mostly just give deeper nods, with maybe a slight sway forward in the shoulders, but otherwise the spine remains mostly vertical. A man also has a wider range of social equals, too, it seems, if I'm right in interpreting the "slight lean plus nod" as a truncated bow, given that I've seen kdrama men give this to each other, their bosses, and their parents. In the same situation with genders reversed, a kdrama woman would probably do several repeated full-depth bobbing-bows.
Only in deep major-social-difference bows, in a formal situation (like retail workers greeting the CEO), do the kdrama bows resemble the jdrama deep bow in terms of the bow's steady unhurried (not slow, just not hurried) speed. However, the head still leads, so there's no final chin-drop at the end; the chin is instead nearly at the chest for the entire bow, and seems to regularly expose the nape of the person bowing. (This stood out, because my understanding of Japanese etiquette is that one should not expose the nape of the neck when bowing. Something to do with being decapitated or, uhm, something.)
...And then there's the Taiwanese and Chinese dramas, where no one bows. I'm not used to bowing as a major interaction, so its absence took a bit to register, but bows in TW-dramas are very unusual. At most, where a jdrama or kdrama would bow, a tw-drama will give a brief nod. The nod is sometimes returned with an even briefer nod, but most of the time there's not even that.
The other thing is the posture. The posture of most jdrama actors seems to be relatively upright, with shoulders back. Only in the elderly or the very lowest social standing do I see hunched shoulders like someone who's spent a lot of time bowing. That hunched-shoulder posture is much more common in kdramas, especially for young female actresses, who (I suppose) spend a lot of time doing the rapid-fire bobbing-bow to their social superiors, which I guess would probably be just about everyone. Actually, the hunched-shoulder and curved spine of the kdrama heroine is pretty common, especially in romantic comedies.
In tw-dramas, the spine and posture are like the Japanese: upright, shoulders level, relaxed. There are exceptions (of course), but they show up in tandem with being much older, or working retail long-term. Other than the hunch/huddle of elderly bones, the hunched-shoulder posture of the kdrama -- when you see it in tw-dramas -- seems to indicate an obsequious person, or someone trying to be ingratiating or who lacks self-confidence. Whereas in kdramas, that hunched posture doesn't seem to be tied, contextually, to any comment about the person or any specific characterization.
Actually, come to think of it, other than the rare begging-bow (apology, or requesting a favor of a parent or superior), tw-dramas have shown more on-the-knees supplication. I've seen similar in jdramas, usually when it's potential-spouse with future in-laws. Tw-dramas, the on-the-knees seems to be the equivalent to the jdrama deep-and-held very formal apology-bow. Except that in tw-dramas, having gotten on their knees, the characters at most drop the chin; they don't bow further. Actually, I could clarify that further: the character will nod at the start, as though requesting permission to speak. The chin comes back up while speaking, but may drop again in another nod-bow at the end, in gratitude or acknowledgment for/of the listening person.
The only time I've seen on-the-knees in a kdrama was for a major supplication, and the chin was against the chest for the duration of the kneeling. Quite a contrast with the tw-dramas where on-the-knees is often accompanied by the chin being up, in what might even be characterized as a defiant position were it not for the kneeling.
I've found various essays/articles about bowing for Japanese culture, but none for Korea or Taiwan, and definitely none that compare the greeting/departure nuances between the three. If you watch any of those countries' dramas, or are familiar with any of the cultures directly, am I missing something that might explain the nuances? Do you see the same pattern, or do you see real-life patterns being different, and if so, any idea of why the drama-versions vary from real life and/or are so consistent in their presentation?
In jdramas, I've seen people bow when they greet, when they depart, when they apologize, and when they congratulate. Often it's multiple bows in the same space of time, such as bowing in greetings, to which the other person bows, and then there's a response bow. (This got parodied wonderfully in a short segment in the first episode of the kdrama, Coffee House.) From CP and Japanese friends, I have some understanding of the basic etiquette of bowing... but it's not doing me much good in understanding the nuances when I'm watching kdramas. At least, I can't just assume the two correlate, because when you deconstruct kdrama bows, the details and style are different -- enough that I'm not willing to just take it for granted that they mean the same or should be applied/understood the same way.
In kdramas, the bows seem to be for significant social distance -- when someone's your elder, when someone is your boss or higher, when someone is of a greater social standing, and especially when it's a woman to a man. The bow is rarely returned, not even marked as a nod.
For really important things like apologies, the kdrama bow is deep and held, otherwise it seems to consistently be a rapid drop-and-raise but still rather deep. The head leads in the downward movement until the upper body is parallel with the floor, then the shoulders lead in the upward movement as the person pops back upright. Sometimes it'll be several of those repeated in fast succession.
In jdramas, the head doesn't lead, the shoulders do. In fact, many of the more casual (greeting, departure) bows seem to be two-part. The torso comes forward to maybe a 45' angle, but the head only tips forward just a bit, and frequently the head is almost tilted. It's almost like the head bows a little sideways, to keep the other person in the line of sight, and in some cases, the angle of the torso also appears to twist or angle just a little, so eye contact isn't broken. Only once the torso is at its greatest angle does the head move, into a short or deep nod to echo the torso's movement. It's a very dignified motion, and the head-movement being last makes that echoing nod feel almost like the deliberate period at the end of the sentence-bow.
For jdrama really formal (ie apology) bows, the shoulders lead but the head, again, is on a separate line, so the chin remains up until the torso is parallel with the floor, and then the head tilts down with a sharp, delineated movement. What made me realize the difference is that in jdramas, when it's a deep bow for apology, the hair doesn't flip back or forwards until the bow is almost completed, because the head is held somewhat steady, then the chin goes down abruptly and the hair swings forward, in some cases covering the person's face.
In kdramas, the rapid up-down-up-down apology bows make the hair swing back and forth with the movement. I've also noticed that while jdramas sometimes show truncated bows -- only a slight lean forward of the shoulders, with the head-tilt emphasis indicating that it's an abbreviated, less-formal bow -- but kdramas rarely do a truncated bow.
Or, at least, it's harder to catch because it goes by so fast, when it does happen. The chin drops to the chest, and then the entire torso swings down with a quick lean forward, lean back. The face remains downcast and is only raised again once the torso is back to being fully vertical. That truncated, less-deep bow appears most common in kdramas among young women with male friends, and retail workers to customers.
Between female social equals (in age and status), bowing only seems to happen for apologies (not greeting or departure). Most apologies get one or two rapid bobbing-bows, and the deep held-bow is only pulled out for really big things, like stealing someone's boyfriend or wrecking someone's car.
I can't recall male social equals bowing to each other, except in cases of major apology; the men, from what I recall, mostly just give deeper nods, with maybe a slight sway forward in the shoulders, but otherwise the spine remains mostly vertical. A man also has a wider range of social equals, too, it seems, if I'm right in interpreting the "slight lean plus nod" as a truncated bow, given that I've seen kdrama men give this to each other, their bosses, and their parents. In the same situation with genders reversed, a kdrama woman would probably do several repeated full-depth bobbing-bows.
Only in deep major-social-difference bows, in a formal situation (like retail workers greeting the CEO), do the kdrama bows resemble the jdrama deep bow in terms of the bow's steady unhurried (not slow, just not hurried) speed. However, the head still leads, so there's no final chin-drop at the end; the chin is instead nearly at the chest for the entire bow, and seems to regularly expose the nape of the person bowing. (This stood out, because my understanding of Japanese etiquette is that one should not expose the nape of the neck when bowing. Something to do with being decapitated or, uhm, something.)
...And then there's the Taiwanese and Chinese dramas, where no one bows. I'm not used to bowing as a major interaction, so its absence took a bit to register, but bows in TW-dramas are very unusual. At most, where a jdrama or kdrama would bow, a tw-drama will give a brief nod. The nod is sometimes returned with an even briefer nod, but most of the time there's not even that.
The other thing is the posture. The posture of most jdrama actors seems to be relatively upright, with shoulders back. Only in the elderly or the very lowest social standing do I see hunched shoulders like someone who's spent a lot of time bowing. That hunched-shoulder posture is much more common in kdramas, especially for young female actresses, who (I suppose) spend a lot of time doing the rapid-fire bobbing-bow to their social superiors, which I guess would probably be just about everyone. Actually, the hunched-shoulder and curved spine of the kdrama heroine is pretty common, especially in romantic comedies.
In tw-dramas, the spine and posture are like the Japanese: upright, shoulders level, relaxed. There are exceptions (of course), but they show up in tandem with being much older, or working retail long-term. Other than the hunch/huddle of elderly bones, the hunched-shoulder posture of the kdrama -- when you see it in tw-dramas -- seems to indicate an obsequious person, or someone trying to be ingratiating or who lacks self-confidence. Whereas in kdramas, that hunched posture doesn't seem to be tied, contextually, to any comment about the person or any specific characterization.
Actually, come to think of it, other than the rare begging-bow (apology, or requesting a favor of a parent or superior), tw-dramas have shown more on-the-knees supplication. I've seen similar in jdramas, usually when it's potential-spouse with future in-laws. Tw-dramas, the on-the-knees seems to be the equivalent to the jdrama deep-and-held very formal apology-bow. Except that in tw-dramas, having gotten on their knees, the characters at most drop the chin; they don't bow further. Actually, I could clarify that further: the character will nod at the start, as though requesting permission to speak. The chin comes back up while speaking, but may drop again in another nod-bow at the end, in gratitude or acknowledgment for/of the listening person.
The only time I've seen on-the-knees in a kdrama was for a major supplication, and the chin was against the chest for the duration of the kneeling. Quite a contrast with the tw-dramas where on-the-knees is often accompanied by the chin being up, in what might even be characterized as a defiant position were it not for the kneeling.
I've found various essays/articles about bowing for Japanese culture, but none for Korea or Taiwan, and definitely none that compare the greeting/departure nuances between the three. If you watch any of those countries' dramas, or are familiar with any of the cultures directly, am I missing something that might explain the nuances? Do you see the same pattern, or do you see real-life patterns being different, and if so, any idea of why the drama-versions vary from real life and/or are so consistent in their presentation?
no subject
Date: 14 Jan 2011 07:45 pm (UTC)And there are books for Americans (business people, usually) on how to behave in foreign countries. (Presumably also books on "How to conform to weird American customs" in Japanese, Korean, etc.)
no subject
Date: 14 Jan 2011 07:50 pm (UTC)IOW: I'm seeing differences and wondering if these are presented as part of drama-style (and may not have any basis in reality, that's just How We Show It On TV) -- but I distrust the texts I already have because those require I filter in/out on "how Americans interpret it".
(With the caveat that none of my books even mention Taiwan. All of them seem to think that if you know proper behavior for PRC social situations, you'll be covered for Taiwan, and I just am not convinced that's automatically so. At least, not without being told so by someone who is Taiwanese and knowledgeable, y'know? ... and with the exception of one text written by a man with an African name, the rest were all written by Western academics with Anglo-sounding names.)
no subject
Date: 14 Jan 2011 08:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 15 Jan 2011 07:46 am (UTC)In kdramas, the bows seem to be for significant social distance -- when someone's your elder, when someone is your boss or higher, when someone is of a greater social standing, and especially when it's a woman to a man. The bow is rarely returned, not even marked as a nod.
This is pretty spot on. I always bow to my elders/superiors but it would be completely weird if they bowed back. I thought this was also the case for Japanese bowing though so I'm not sure why you're making the distinction.
Between female social equals (in age and status), bowing only seems to happen for apologies (not greeting or departure). Most apologies get one or two rapid bobbing-bows, and the deep held-bow is only pulled out for really big things, like stealing someone's boyfriend or wrecking someone's car.
Hmm I think I know what you're talking about. Maybe it's because I grew up somewhat isolated from a larger Korean community, but there have been very few instances where I'd see someone doing the rapid bobbing-bow. I do recall my mother and other women doing sort of a truncated bow when receiving gifts from someone of equal social status or greeting each other as strangers. I do the truncated bow (tilt head and lean quickly) when I meet a fellow Korean student for the first time. The posture detail is interesting. Never noticed the distinction actually but I guess there is a bit of a hunch to the shoulders. (Although mine can be easily attributed to general bad posture, heh.)
Then again kdramas, due to their content, will show a lot more versatility in bows. All of the situations I've been in are either really formal (with the kneeling bow or deep bow) or typical (bowing to older people, strangers, anyone ranked socially higher). I can ask my parents about it since they grew up in South Korea and are more familiar with the nuances.
Also in a regular situation, i.e., no ridiculous drama-trope induced scenario, it's more polite to bow not too fast or too slow. At least that's how I was instructed when I was a child. My mother said bowing too quickly or too slowly just looks plain awkward. There are times when bowing quickly or slowly is required but it's very context-based.
Slight tangent here: my grandmother once complained to my mother over the phone about how her grandson refused to bow to her. Instead he'd greet her with the Korean version of "Hey!" She went off on a diatribe against disrespectful youth after that. I was pretty shocked and impressed as a little kid because my experience with bowing and greeting elders is that if you screw up even a little bit (bad posture, greeting not loud enough/enthusiastic enough) you got called on it. Nothing more embarrassing than having your aunt yell at you in front of others to speak up because you're too shy to greet her properly.
no subject
Date: 15 Jan 2011 08:59 am (UTC)Also, k-dramas don't show a lot of what I think of as call-and-answer bows: I bow, you bow, I bow again, like I'm sealing the deal -- kdramas would just show me bowing, and you (at most) kind of casually nodding. At least, I can't think of any instances of that in kdramas, but it's a pattern I'm used to in jdramas. (If a short nod is the Taiwanese version of a bow, then tw-dramas do a call-and-answer only once: I nod with only the barest hint of shoulder dip, and you nod curtly, and that's that.)
The rapid-bobbing-bows I see in kdramas look fast, but when you compare them to the way jdrama bows are very... well, deliberate is the best word, really -- then suddenly kdrama bows look much faster. In some cases, the repeating rapid bows are so fast the person almost looks like they're flailing. Hair flying everywhere! Which like I said, just looks fast (maybe frantic, or the speed is supposed to show the character's amount of distress?) until you set it side-by-side with Japanese bows, and then it looks practically hyper... but maybe that's a TV-convention now, to illustrate how upset or sincere the apologizing person is?
(Sort of like "We don't turn off our phones; we REMOVE the BATTERIES" as a visual exclamation point that no one does in real life.)
If I could figure out a way to upload the segment from Coffee House onto youtube, I would -- because that's where you can really see the difference in the Korean bow (attempting to emulate a Japanese bow) and an actual Japanese bow. The korean actress is definitely leading with her head, while the Japanese actress is leading with her shoulders.
Really formal situations... those are kind of in a category of their own, aren't they. I mean, there's stuff I'd say and do in a formal situation I wouldn't dream of in a casual situation, even down to the way I'd walk to the sofa and sit down and the position I'd hold my legs and arms in. Or maybe that's just from too many hours in my childhood being forced to walk around, sit down, and stand up, all while keeping a big honking dictionary balanced on my head. Sometimes I let my posture slack and then I swear, I can feel those ten pounds on top of my head again, and my spine goes straight again. The trauma, ugh, the trauma.
Slight tangent back at you: wei is the 'hey' sound in Taiwanese, but it just doesn't quite have the *snap!* of the kdramas, when someone yells, "YAH!" Not that I expect the 'hey' you mean to be the same (since the only time I've seen that YAH! is when someone's annoyed and demands someone else pay attention), but still. I think I'm going to adopt that as my own 'hey' -- YAH! -- it's just such a satisfying kind of sound. YAH!
no subject
Date: 15 Jan 2011 09:57 am (UTC)Honestly this is a situation where an outsider probably has a better perspective. You're correct about a number of observations picked up on Korean bowing, but I have no idea what it means in relation to other cultures since I kind of assumed everyone bowed Korean-style. You've actually made me realize that I'm probably bowing in kendo a bit oddly. I just started training kendo-style (Japanese) versus kumdo-style (Korean). We have a lot of bowing involved so the distinction is probably obvious to others, since they learned to bow Japanese style, but can't say I would've noticed unless someone pointed it out.
Ahaha he (the grandson) actually used "YAH" which adds on whole layers of hilarity because of the sheer rudeness. He was basically saying "HEY, GRANDMA, I JUST ARRIVED NOW DO STUFF FOR ME". I added the exclamation point to hey to try and convey that snap since generally I don't hear "hey" used in that manner. I've also heard it used in a softer tone as more of as a quick, informal reprimand (usually by my parents toward me and my sister).
no subject
Date: 27 Feb 2011 08:24 pm (UTC)I couldn't even begin to tell you what to do. I just... do it by instinct. O_o
(Hi! Sorry, going through VERY old posts...)
no subject
Date: 3 Mar 2011 07:31 am (UTC)Thing is, I get why she couldn't relax, because she was doing the same thing (but with a more personal investment, granted) as I'm doing as the outsider in this case. What does that mean? Why do that there, and not there? Does it make a difference that it's done this way now, but fifteen minutes from now, you say the same thing but don't do it with physical affection?
There's a lot of stuff we learn just from being acculturated... and it's really, really hard to explain the how's and why's to anyone else, when it's not like we ever stopped to figure them out, ourselves. We just learned what to do from watching people around us.
Actually, cultural body language (like handshakes or bows or hugs etc) is probably a lot like irregular verbs. You don't know the logic behind them; you just memorize them until they're second nature, and then you never think about them again until someone completely screws them up. And even then, you might not be able to explain why you say "swum" instead of "swam" or whatever; all you can say is that this is what you say.
heh.
no subject
Date: 3 Mar 2011 02:10 pm (UTC)