why did it take this long?

[kaigou]

I won't go into any irons I may have in the fire (but I will say it's long since died past embers), but it still surprises me -- and disappoints me greatly -- to discover that this conversation in the pagan world is only now occurring with any significant intensity. It's 2011 already, people. This debate is long overdue.

Comments

[kaigou]

In my experience, anyone can uncompromisingly strict (fundy) to the letter and not the spirit. In the decade or so that I was more active with those communities (never having been one for sticking to just one), I saw more letter than spirit, to be honest. And when you get into trans-issues, I hate admitting it, but that's when the worst aspects of humanity would come to the forefront.

CP and I were talking about this earlier, and I mentioned that one linked article (in the link-round up I linked to), someone argued that women are socialized differently than men, so if you weren't "born" a woman, then you... I don't know, don't have the socialization to "be" a woman in certain circles? Which strikes me as completely wrong-headed. How else would someone learn what it means to "be" a woman in this culture (seeing how socialization is also acculturation) than to spend time with like souls, learning from them? An immigrant coming from a place where the gender of "woman" is defined differently goes through the same learning process (if in different ways) as a M2F trans would, I think -- it's socialization. Later in life, but hey, that person is one of us (whatever us may be) now.

So the person is being socialized a little bit late, but at the same time -- a lot of the socialization of women really stinks! Why on earth would I want to grant that argument any water, if I personally think it's pretty reprehensible, the way parents/adults reinforce strict gender lines on small children? Arguing that childhood-socialization is the difference also puts way too much weight on something that happened [censored] years ago, and I'm an adult, now. I'd like to take responsibility for my own freaking socialization, instead of blaming it on whether I was held looking forwards or backwards by my parents.

[dharma_slut]

Well, it can be, honestly, a bit rough on the people you are expecting to do the socialising-- when what they want to do is the freaking ritual and get some comfort.

[kaigou]

True. Except a great part of socialization is non-verbal and non-instructive. It's just plain being with others-like-yourself. In other words, I don't see that it's something that requires a whole lot of hoohah. So maybe some of the group may have different interior perspectives, but given the myriad experiences that everyone's bringing to the table, wouldn't we all?

And although I know (or am guessing that I know) you're maybe playing devil's advocate on that... it just seems to me to be rather, I don't know, what would be the best word? It seems like it's saying you only deserve a ritual's comfort if you qualify in some very limited ways, but if the ritual's purpose is for, say, "women", then wouldn't even newly-made women need just as much comfort as born-made women? Maybe, given the society's biases against newly-made, even more comfort and validation of being part of a ritual?

It just seems like a double slap, to me. Can't go forward, can't go back. If we carry their nonsense to the final level, is there a written test to prove you're socialized/educated enough as-a-woman to qualify for citizenship? Do you have to swear on something that you've jumped through all the paperwork hoops and have done your five years with a trans green card and have paid your social fees? And afterwards, does anyone give you flowers? What absolute tripe.

So maybe someone's new to the country of women, but she'll learn the language as best she can, and immersion can be -- should be -- a valuable and wonderful way to do that. Maybe she'll always speak with a slight accent, but that doesn't make her any less of a citizen just because some morons think she only counts if she was born here.