I should've seen this coming.

[kaigou]

Two neighbors are heading to Japan for business trip. They'll have a coworker along as translator, but the neighbor's wife is working overtime to learn at least the basics of Japanese for the trip. As musicians, CP figured they'd enjoy Nodame Cantabile (live action version), so we take a copy for them. Meanwhile, the Japanese tutor recommends one of Miyazaki's sappier sobfests, and the neighbors decide they don't like anime at all. (I did point out this is like watching an episode of Cheers and deciding that all American television sucks -- sure, it's mostly suckage, as is most of Japanese animation and television for that matter, or any media anywhere -- but you can hardly say on the basis of one movie and and a few clips that all of it sucks.)

So, since the issue here is learning some basics of the language, I suggested several series that have significant cultural components in the folklore/myth areas (Spirited Away, Mushishi, even Mo No No Ke), that also have some of the bigger names among the seiyuu. I figured if it's listening comprehension, the seiyuu, like radio vs television, speak with greater enunciation and clarity than most live-action actors. And that if folklore/myths are an interest, than those series are more steeped in it than most.

Here's the reply from the neighbor. Several other comments not relevant here, and then this paragraph:

Very realistic city images in [the Durarara comparison clip]! What B--- and I don't "get" is why these anime artists make Japanese people look Anglo? The big eyes, etc. What is this? Some sort of self-loathing going on here? Anyway, I know it's blasphemous, but we really don't care for anime. *sigh*

Maybe I should've asked here, first, but I just couldn't process the statement, at first. I could handle the "they look white" thing, since I've seen that before. But taking it into the realm of concluding this is "self-loathing"... I think I wrote and edited about six different versions of a reply. I mean, I have the option of waving off the assumption, because it's not like I'm Japanese (or even Asian) so what have I got to lose if I just let it stand, right? But then, no matter how hard it is to have your privilege checked, after the fact I've always been glad to know I'm one step closer to not looking like a freaking ignorant moron.

So I replied:

Short version: Yes, they are. They don't. No. Definitely NO. Irrelevant.

Slightly longer version: Your statements below are running the perilous edge of something I just don't want to get into on a Monday morning -- or any morning. At all. So with an attempt at diplomacy, I'll rely instead on explanations from those who've said it better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKTvFhRbBt8

http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/03/14/of-wacky-japan-and-the-myth-of-the-other/

http://nonsensicalwords.blogspot.com/2010/02/imaginary-asians.html

Just watch and read the links above, educate yourself, and then think twice about what you said.

Probably not the most graceful reply, but truncated down from the rant I wanted to launch into. CP's comment (after the fact) was that I should've clarified it as a 'hot button', but I dislike that term. It's too easy to trivialize 'hot button' as "oh, then it's just a personal problem". No, this isn't personal -- I just get offended when someone makes really fucking offensive statements around me. That's where the personal impact is: I'm hanging out with someone who's expressing racist notions, however innocently or ignorantly, and that fucking bothers me. It makes me look at myself and say, "am I the kind of person who'd let this go by? am I the kind of person who'd say, since it's not about me, I don't care?"

You don't even have to bet pizza money on this reaction. I was hoping for different, but...

An attempt at diplomacy?

The questions were asked very honestly and innocently, and we know well that these questions have been explored academically and thoughtfully, and not with accusations of racism.

Now that we have been accused of being racists, there will be no further communication with you.

So, you, my dear, think about what YOU have said.

I really really wanted to write back with simply: "I did think about it: I said your statements were offensive, and I stand by that." But instead, and again (maybe stupidity on my part, or just being too goddamned tired all around right now to care enough) I didn't run it past CP, my diplomacy expert. I just pondered and replied.

I sort of expected that response, but I'd hoped not.

Your assumptions about the Japanese -- made on the basis of watching what, a single movie and maybe a few clips? -- weren't personally offensive to me. I have the privilege, as a white american, of ignoring the offense since it doesn't impact me personally. But your words -- however innocent in their ignorance -- were offensive independent of my reaction. I had thought you, as an educated open-minded person, would prefer that I give you information such that you could realize what you'd said, and could learn from it, and realize your hidden (and, I believed, unintended and unaware) assumptions and their implications.

I strive constantly to check my own privilege at the door and don't always succeed, myself. I know it's not always easy to have someone else remind me of where I'm falling short, which is why I'm not all that shocked at your defensive anger. Been through it myself in the learning process, and that's why the diplomacy of a third party's words are, I've found, often a bit easier to handle.

I still believe you're capable of seeing this, and that you're not someone who'd enjoy learning long after the fact just what impression you'd given, no matter how innocent your words. I think you're self-aware enough to find that possibility uncomfortable, as you obviously do, but I'd also hoped you were mature enough to realize that the messenger is not at fault for pointing out how your words may appear to others.

Yeah. Maybe I'm an idiot for upsetting someone with an attempt at a polite, oh my god do you realize what you sound like, do you really mean to sound like such a racist ignorant idiot? Maybe I should've just ignored it, and dropped the topic altogether.

I mean, I could've. That's always an option, but it's not an option I can choose and still believe that I'm a good person. It's a freaking racist statement, and I do believe I have the right to say that I don't want to hear that shit. I tried to say it nicely (and yes, on rereading I'm aware I failed, but in final analysis that doesn't mean the message is false, in and of itself), and I'd hope the neighbor wises up, but if not...

Then again, this is the same neighbor who's spent a fair bit of time talking at me about Judaism despite me saying I'm damn near close to an atheist, have no interest outside vague cultural, yes I did study it in school but that doesn't mean I need a ten-minute lecture about observing a Sabbath for a religion I have never practiced and never will. I mean, really, when my half of the conversation consists of nothing but "mmm... nnnnh... mmmm..." kinda "yes, still here but not all that interested" -- how much blunter can I get?

Or maybe that's just an oddity of me, that I get more offended on behalf of generalized racist-cultural statements about someone else, yet state once and then give up and just tolerate the repeated "we're all believers here" attitude that offends me, personally.

Tell me I'm wrong, and I say that in a "tell me I'm damn well right to say something" meaning, because I could use the backup right now. A bit of reminder that it is important to stand up at times like these.

Now, I think I'll go out in the garden and dig up worms. Not to eat, but to have conversation with. Anything's got to be better than this morning's exchange.

Comments

[branchandroot]

You /were/ damn well right to say something. Which does not make the classic defensive condescension of their response any nicer to deal with, I know.

One can only hope they'll get around to figuring out the asshattery of that remark and assumption before they actually take off for Japan and reify the Ugly American one more interminable time.

[kaigou]

One can only hope they'll get around to figuring out the asshattery of that remark and assumption before they actually take off for Japan and reify the Ugly American one more interminable time.

Or at least be a bit more careful about the statements they make, even if they're incapable of actually understanding why those statements are offensive. I guess if I can't have true open minds, I'll settle for shut mouths.

[starlady]

Yup, saying something seems like the right thing to do to me.

I'm not holding my breath for your neighbors, though. I've met white people who've lived in Japan for decades who still have that attitude.

[kaigou]

What gets me is that it's something one would never say to an actual person of that culture -- and if one would know, ahead of time, by some faint hunch, that someone in the culture would be offended, isn't that a possible sign that the question is, itself, offensive? Why should I be exempt from being offended just because I'm not a member of the culture in question?

I think that's what gets me the most in conversations like this one -- that I have no right to be offended, and my calling on it is the 'real' offense. The real message in there is that the person didn't expect any backlash from me, because we look the same, and therefore it's a "safe place" to say such things.

Except that I refuse to be a "safe place" for someone else's bigotry. Not if I can help it.

[starlady]

The real message in there is that the person didn't expect any backlash from me, because we look the same, and therefore it's a "safe place" to say such things.

Yeah. Puke.

[dragovianknight]

I can't quite get over the "you think about what YOU have said" part of their reply. *headdesk*

[kaigou]

No kidding. I'm not sure that's stemming from privilege, but it's stemming from something that certainly reeks.

[whatistigerbalm]

we know well that these questions have been explored academically and thoughtfully

Sssooooo... why ask your helpful neighbour Kaigou those same questions in a less than thoughtful and academic manner?

Or maybe that's just an oddity of me, that I get more offended on behalf of generalized racist-cultural statements about someone else, yet state once and then give up and just tolerate the repeated "we're all believers here" attitude that offends me, personally.

This is a counter-intuitive guess, but maybe it's easier to argue (or even just engage) if it's not about you? This is certainly true of me; my straight self can lecture people about not being jerks to gays with a hundred times more patience than my female self can muster in debates that tackle gender.

[kaigou]

maybe it's easier to argue (or even just engage) if it's not about you?

I think it's also a little bit about the offense, too. I mean, if I say, "I have no interest in religion, any religion, and I don't like being lectured about the proper observances of religion," and the person goes right on doing it, then I suddenly have to address whether or not this person is really a decent human being -- to me, as a person. And into asking, "is this really okay behavior from a friend?" If it's something more distanced, I can say, "this is not okay behavior from a human being," without having to ask myself the question of whether the person actually -- on top of everything else -- does not respect me, as a person, and thus sees nothing wrong in treating me that way.

It's one thing to deal with a person's learned (if unintended or ignorant) racist/sexist/homophobic/ableist/etc biases. It's another thing to deal with that and the fact that having these biases means the person has assumption about you, as a person.

That's my current theory, at least. Stay tuned for further developments.

[whatistigerbalm]

Makes sense to me!

[annotated_em]

No, you're definitely right to say something. Maybe one of these days it'll soak in for your neighbors what it was they said.

Wouldn't hold my breath, though.

[kaigou]

A part of me shouldn't care, but a part of me has travelled enough that I do care -- such attitudes, however unspoken yet assumed, do come through to the natives when you're elsewhere. And that will color how those people then interact with other Americans. That does bug me.

I can't change the world, but that doesn't mean I'll sit here and not have as much of an impact as possible on my corner of it.

[troisroyaumes]

You were definitely right to say something; I'm glad you did. After having been the casual target of "Asians want to be white" meme too many times to count--and I'm not even getting into the part where it's a double-edged sword for Asian diaspora living in white-majority countries--I read that comment about "self-loathing" and felt like I was punched in the gut. Of course, his follow-up email pretty much admits that he thinks that being implicitly accused of saying something racist is much, much worse than how his words would make someone like me feel. Nonetheless, even making him aware that people will consider his comments offensive may make him think twice about saying them in public even if he never understands why.

[kaigou]

even making him aware that people will consider his comments offensive may make him think twice about saying them in public even if he never understands why.

Yep. As I said to Branch (above), if I can't get open minds, I'll settle for shut mouths.

I do recall when first watching anime that I didn't entirely 'get' the visual style -- size of eyes, for instance. I wasn't thinking, "those are anglo eyes," so much as "my god, those are exaggerated beyond all belief." So I went and actually looked up the history of animanga, to see where that style came from, to understand -- but then, one could say that 'understanding' is a major life-goal for me, that it's never enough to just wonder and then let it go. Better to research on one's own (thank the internets!), than opening my mouth and making it obvious that I can have stupid assumptions, too. (And when all else fails, I ask you guys to set me aright.)

Thing is, although I've always found the Western-Eastern dynamic to be fascinating and complex, I'm also aware it is majorly complex with a long (and often bloody) history. I stayed in a place of, "I don't have enough information to formulate a theory" for a long time, until I'd had enough exposure that I could start analyzing what I was watching -- and even then, always with an awareness that I was seeing (sometimes) my own culture reflected through another culture's gaze. Although that's something I also find not just fascinating, but also really telling, both about how my culture appears and how other cultures would like themselves to appear in contrast... so, educational even in the midst of tripe like some of the lowest-grade shonen.

The irony here is that we're talking about a Jewish woman who married a Christian. As you can see from the quoted emails, I managed to hold back on my snarkier side that really wanted to say, "so, tell me, you married a Christian man -- wow, obviously you must HATE on Judaism. I mean, because obviously you really want to be Christian."

*eyeroll*

[esmenet]

It was definitely better to say something. It's better to be That Angry One than to let things slide.

It's one thing to deal with a person's learned (if unintended or ignorant) racist/sexist/homophobic/ableist/etc biases. It's another thing to deal with that and the fact that having these biases means the person has assumption about you, as a person.

I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why I find it harder to call my . . . er, acquaintances out on their one little phrase that rings anti-feminist/atheist/etc. than to call them on their subtle, ingrained racism.

[kaigou]

I think you've hit the nail on the head as to why I find it harder to call my . . . er, acquaintances out on their one little phrase that rings anti-feminist/atheist/etc. than to call them on their subtle, ingrained racism.

It's a really good example of how, I think, we can misappropriate privilege to protect us in the areas where we're unprivileged. A kind of indoctrinated, internalized -ism, I guess. The "I can ignore this because it doesn't apply to me" that I can use to ignore, say, white-to-black racism, I then apply to those times that someone wants to shove their male-centric or het-centric or xtian-centric viewpoint at me. They're assuming I'm in agreement with them, from the get-go, and I, in turn, defend myself internally by applying the "I can ignore this" attitude -- even for those issues that do affect me, for issues I cannot truly ignore because I live with it daily. It's like dissecting and excising a piece of yourself and pretending it's something you have privilege to disregard. It means disregarding yourself. I do it more than I'd like to admit, because I know I'm doing it and I'm not proud of myself when I do even when I know intellectually that speaking up would cost me the friendship, the job, whatever other intangible benefit, like that's enough to outweigh the cost I'm paying on the inside.

Thing is, it doesn't feel any better to stand up and say something and be ignored anyway... so in that instance, I actually find myself preferring the neighbor's replies. Much better than if I'd replied and she'd brushed me off and saw nothing wrong with speaking of it again down the road, as though I'd never said a word.

[alas]

The part where they say "Now that we have been accused of being racists, there will be no further communication with you." really makes me go WHUT?

Because really, there's no vestige of you accusing them being TOTALLY RACIST in your reply. I don't know about the youtube video, but the essays use reasonably temperate language as well. Their reply seems extremely defensive, out of all proportion.

Ugh, so ugly. But you appear to be a sane, intelligent person in this discourse. It's nice to see how these discussions can take place with people one may know more personally - but sorry the reaction was so splash-back-y on to you!

[kaigou]

I'm glad to hear there's no overt accusations in [my] email, though I can see how someone might get the impression that they'd really offended me. (Which, duh, they did.) And I think, in instances like this, the offense on their part isn't actually at the notion of being a racist. I mean, if that were truly an issue for them, then they'd be spending the time going, holy crap, that's now not how we intended it, we didn't realize. From the email, the sticking point isn't whether they're racist but the fact that I implied that they are. To me, that says they knew full well it's an offensive statement, and are more angry that I didn't give them a safe place -- as a fellow American, as a fellow white person -- to let them air their private racist reactions. That, I think, is where her anger comes from, that I broke some unspoken code that says we fellow white Americans can say this to each other and it's okay because we're all the same here.

But the implications of that go even further, to me: it's saying that the real offense is that I've broken ranks with "my kind" to point out their transgression against someone who isn't even in the conversation, as it were. Whether or not it's stated explicitly in her reply, this points to an insinuation I've seen often enough in this kind of dialogue, enough to feel reasonably certain it exists here, too: that when one speaks up for the Other, the amount I share in common with the racist-speaker allows the racist-speaker to dismiss my defense/reaction. I think it's a logic that's sort of like, "I don't get them, and this seems obvious to me, and you're Just Like Me (at least on the outside and in basic class/culture ways), thus you can't really 'get' them, either, so your insistence that I'm Doing It Wrong must, in itself, be wrong. Or at least just doesn't hold any water, because there's no way you could know better than I -- seeing how you're Just Like Me and if it seemed fine to me, it must be fine to you. Therefore, clearly, you're only saying this because you want to offend me personally, not because you actually believe it. So now I'm going to be offended at how you've insulted me."

Whew, that's some twisty logic. I didn't think I could nail it in twenty words or less... and I couldn't. Hell, I think I only nailed half of it. Hurts too much on the brainpan to keep going, honestly.

[stinky-horowitz.livejournal.com]

I don't think you sounded judgmental in either of your replies. I do think it says more about them that they decided to take a simple information exchange as castigation. Meh.
I'm glad you said something to them; I'm also glad you mentioned it here. That youtube video was particularly illuminating. I'm passing it on to my stepson now. Our family is a big consumer of videogames/anime, and I never had a good explanation for why the characters were drawn that way. I mean, we knew for sure there wasn't any "white envy" going on--oh, that makes me laugh. (Rick worked for a Japanese company once. It was illuminating.) But the characters still read as Caucasian to me, especially the less obviously stylized, unless I make a conscious effort. I guess I stupidly expected Japanese cartoon characters to look more like Edo-period woodcuts, or hark back to them somehow. Which is like wondering why Disney isn't more like the Impressionists, or better yet, Norman Rockwell. Makes no sense, if you consider it logically.

[kaigou]

While I do wish the person doing the youtube video had left some of the text on a little longer -- hey, I can read 800 words a minute and if I can't read it, then it's really fast -- and maybe also realized that white-on-colors isn't always easy to read... but the visuals do so much of the work, I think the video is still pretty damn useful as an educational tool all the same. (And the person had a really good idea with actually outlining the face and comparing them -- suddenly, even with all my viewing experience, even I was going, ohhhhhh I see that!)

Rick worked for a Japanese company once. It was illuminating.

Yeah, I've had my share of friends who've been the anglo at a Japanese company. After hearing their stories, my reaction to the whole "self-loathing" meme and its variation of "they want to be white" is, "oh, honey, that's such a white-person fantasy." I think because my first major intro to anime was via Gundam -- a series that almost always has a supposedly-diverse cast -- that I realized the characters all had effectively the same face, yet I was being told they were different ethnicities. Either I could argue with the canon (pointless) or I could adjust (harder but smarter), and I learned to look for the clues that tell me a character's ethnicity.

What's curious is that I feel like that "interpret by implication" has bled over into my writing as well -- this is a good thing, but I just find it curious seeing how it's a translation between two different formats.

[ivoryandhorn]

Thanks for the YouTube link, it was very illuminating.

And I do think you did the right thing, and really, I find it kind of admirable -- I'm not sure I'd have been able to do the same thing, had I been in your position, no matter how offended I was.

[kaigou]

I don't think it's something I've always done. I've more likely been the one to change the subject -- often rather pointedly -- and I've never made any attempt to hide my reaction, either. Normally that's been enough, and I suspect that's what I would've done, at least as first reaction, had the conversation been face-to-face. What I wouldn't have done when younger that I do now is to follow up and explain, help the person understand.

But this winter has been really hard on me, and I think part of why I said something is because I've just been so tired that I simply didn't have the energy to do the whole education thing. Thus, links, and a rather curt message -- because it's just so freaking exhausting, getting into it. So to a certain degree, seeing how it hadn't taken a lot of interaction to realize that I just didn't have the energy for her, that this was reason enough to limit my energy here, too.

That makes it easier to cut someone off, I've found, if you don't actually care what their response is -- except possibly in a "wow, you're more fodder for my mockery" kind of way.

[(Anonymous)]

Sometimes a person has to speak up.
"The time comes when silence is betrayal."- ML King
"The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off."- G Steinem

[kaigou]

Yes, and yes... and man, I wish anonymice would sign, please!

[pseudo_tsuga]

I find the "all people in anime are white" thing kind of hilarious sometimes, because have you seen how Western people are drawn in manga? We have huge noses and noticeably different eyes! I still remember trying to convince a classmate that Sailor Moon was Japanese, even though she was blond.

[kaigou]

have you seen how Western people are drawn in manga? We have huge noses and noticeably different eyes!

Hell, yeah. Once you see a character who's distinctly and definitely identified as "western" suddenly it becomes patently obvious that the rest of the characters -- y'know, the NORMAL looking ones -- are therefore NOT western.

I still remember trying to convince a classmate that Sailor Moon was Japanese, even though she was blond.

*dryly* Because we are the only country that's ever come up with the concept of BLEACHING our hair.

[leorising]

Wow. The fact that she clings to her ignorance so adamantly is disturbing, I certainly see that. Of course you were right for saying something.

I've been told I shine a flashlight on people, and they find it uncomfortable and lash out at me for it. Sounds like you and I are in the same club.

I had a good friend start maliciously gossiping to me about another dear friend as soon as I entered her car this morning. I told her, basically, to knock it off, and this woman was terribly offended. I've found she doesn't like to be called on her shit, and just bulled it out. After a car ride in silence, we ended up at coffee (with the person being gossiped about, yah, not cool IMO) and just decided to start over. We do that a lot these days. There's very little badmouthing I'll take of my friends, and she should know better.

Sometimes we've got to endure this kind of crap from others, just to be able to look at ourselves in the mirror every morning.

Well done, I say. FWIW.

[kaigou]

I've been told I shine a flashlight on people, and they find it uncomfortable and lash out at me for it. Sounds like you and I are in the same club.

I did the same thing to a few people when CP and I were first dating, and I recall being rather disturbed by it at the time -- mostly because I hadn't intended to get that startled-and-defensive reaction. I was just calling it like I saw it. CP called me a bubble-burster... and I suppose I am. I still tend to do that without thinking, but I try to think more often these days. Not because I mind bubble-bursting, but because most people aren't actually worth the effort.

[leorising]

Ha! Ain't that the truth. Life teaches us to pick our battles.

[dejla]

I don't know if I know enough to say you're wrong. I don't think you're wrong -- I think you're right. But I'm also a white middle-class American woman, and I don't know that much about anime.

[kaigou]

Heh. I've been thinking about the issue of not knowing about anime, so I figure maybe if we universalize it, you'll see where the dynamic is that's the offensive part(s).

Let's say the person had started off with the style observation: big eyes. Think of any art style and there's probably something in there that would make you say, on first reaction, "why is that drawn/portrayed that way?" Like, say, the trend in Hispanic art to have distorted perspectives on street scenes, or in Indian (Asia, not America) styles where the characters are always drawn in profile. Calling attention to this can be completely innocent, assuming the question isn't phrased like, "all the people drawn are wearing stupid flowery skirts, what's up with that?"

Thus, the offense isn't in noticing a specific element of the style, but in drawing a line (so to speak) between this element and similar in white/american culture. The Hispanic street scenes show american muscle cars: therefore, the inclusion of a white-identified object (Chevies, Harleys, etc) or a white-identified fashion (Levis, cowboy boots, NASCAR t-shirts), indicates a "wish to be white". It's in the eye of the beholder, this white-identification, and it requires a certain amount of proprietary assumption, too: "I consider this to be a white-person's thing or dress or style, thus, anyone else using it must be attempting to co-opt white culture."

That, in and of itself, is offensive enough, really, but most people I've met stop there. I've only heard of people going farther, and never had anyone actually take that next mind-boggling step [until now, that is]. That is, having concluded that the adoption of apparent white-identified (by the viewer) items/behaviors is mutually exclusive with one's own (non-white) culture, and that to exclude one's own culture therefore is an indication of self-loathing. It makes no sense, if you turn the argument inside out (which most people making it don't or can't): does this mean that when I hang a Chinese scroll on my wall, that I am 'adopting' Chinese culture and therefore by definition 'loathe' my birth-culture? Of course not, the speaker would reply, yet they can't seem to see the bind they're putting other cultures into: that to adopt/adapt (or even appear to adopt/adapt, as in the case of 'big eyes') white culture is automatically an indication of wanting to be white.

I know plenty of people who drive Volvos, but we don't go around assuming they must wish they were Swedish, nor do we knock them with accusations of hating America. (Well, some people do, but those people are xenophobic idiots.)

So it's not even that you need to know much about anime, so much as to see the steps involved, and see how these steps can show up for a variety of examples. It's basically, "I have identified X as something 'owned' by white culture," and then onto "someone non-white using this is trying to co-opt white culture" and from that precarious leap right into the racist mud of "you only co-opt white culture rather than use your own if you hate your own".

It takes a helluva stretch, and a whole lot of hidden racism to get you there -- well, it ain't so hidden if your audience isn't as racist as you are, that is. Then it's actually pretty much not hidden, and might as well be on a neon sign.

[dejla]

That's a great explanation, and now I really do get it. No, you weren't wrong, and the "self-loathing" thing is really out of line.

I can see that there is an anime school of drawing, as in Surrealist schools and Art Noveau schools of drawing, and once I got past that, I don't tend to "see" the style. I did see, years ago, Spaceship Yanamoto and Captain Harlock -- Captain Harlock was in Japanese, without subtitles, so I never really understood what was going on, but I can see those stylistic quirks in the modern anime too.

[ticktocktober]

Just wanted to thank you for the links- I've been into anime for a long time, and the concept of Japanese wanting to white on some level due to westernization was just a vague, common-knowledge notion in the back of my head; I'm glad I had the opportunity to clean it out. The video was a huge help in particular, and really helped me recognize the way asian features are often stylized in anime characters. It's completely changed the way I look at anime, and I feel so stupid because it seems so obvious now. Thanks. :)

[kaigou]

I had learned to 'see' faces drawn in Japanese manga/anime as Japanese, simply by enough exposure and training myself to go along with (even in cases of blond hair + blue eyes) that a story told for Japanese audience will have Japanese faces, just as story told for Western audience will likely have Western (and more pointedly, white) faces. A kind of, "remember the audience, and that they're human like anyone and will, for better or worse, prefer to see their own faces on-screen."

What that video did for me was to put it into concrete terms, especially when it comes to pointing out the cheekbone/eye-socket structure. I was like, woah! that's exactly right! I'd never really noticed it because I'm not really an illustrator (other than architecturally, fffttt), so I'd never had reason to draw the line of an anime face and think of my hand's movement when drawing a Western face to compare. (Though it does explain why I've failed miserably the few times I have attempted to do any fanart -- so that's why the faces always came out wrong...!)

I just wish the video-creator hadn't used white text on colorful background, and had thought to leave some of those subtitles up for a bit longer. Hard video to process when so much is illegible and going by at top speed.

[ramenkuri.livejournal.com]

You were so right to speak up.

Anyway, they sound kind of annoying and pompous, so I think it's all for the good.

Thanks for the great links.

[kaigou]

In my experience, pomposity is the last refuge of the self-entitled.

[(Anonymous)]

*delurk*

This is a very interesting post/discussion. I especially find it interesting that your neighbor said "Now that we have been accused of being racists, there will be no further communication with you."

It feels like your neighbor made an instinctive, reflective response to deny that they were racist (despite the fact that their words are very very racist, at least to me). They then ensured they could be 'secure' in this position by cutting of communication with you.

I find this hilariously unself-aware, but also very frustrating because I personally seem to run across this attitude a lot. As an Asian woman in a predominantly Caucasian country, I often hear things like: 'Can you draw this Chinese character?' (It's a word, I can WRITE it, thanks). Or upon seeing some Chinese books on my shelf: 'Oh, you should forget about this language. You're in America now' (Said by, more than one person, but most sadly, a 10 year old girl).

If I may be so bold, I think their anger may not only be in response to the implication that you've broken ranks, as you mentioned earlier. Part of their response may stem from an attitude in America that racism is this horrible thing, and if you are racist you are a Bad Person. And no one wants to be a Bad Person, so many people immediately shut down when the topic comes up. This kind of attitude seems to remove the opportunity to communicate and discuss; educate people on cultural differences and make people aware that there are other, equally valid ways of living outside the boundaries of their own country.

I find it heartening though, that at least here, issues such as privilege and racism can be openly discussed in a rational manner.

Even if your neighbors can't.

~Gray_queen@livejournal

[kaigou]

Part of their response may stem from an attitude in America that racism is this horrible thing, and if you are racist you are a Bad Person. And no one wants to be a Bad Person, so many people immediately shut down when the topic comes up.

Absolutely. Just the merest hint that a statement is racist will get the sudden and total kneejerk reaction like we'd just yelled "OMG YOU RACIST SCUM" at the top of our lungs. And truth is, I'm used to expecting that reaction, but less expectant when it's someone I've been dealing with face-to-face, especially when the person's expressed an interest in learning more about the culture in question. I had expected (somewhat half-heartedly, I admit, and with only a modicum of hope) that our neighbors' genuine interest would lead them to want to hear warnings of how their words might appear.

Since that exchange, I've considered betting anyone here (online) that the neighbors' very first step would be to repeat their statements to their Japanese coworker or tutor, seeking validation that they are not actually racist. And that the Japanese coworker/tutor reaction would be the understandably uncomfortable kind of pained smile, because how else do you react when someone self-righteously not just asks if their offensive statement is offensive, but does so in a way that makes it pretty clear they're expecting you to tell them what they want to hear? People from cultures that emphasize community over individual (like many Asian cultures) are going to feel the hotspot even worse, since they're socially indoctrinated to avoid confrontation, and I can't think of a more confrontational topic for Americans than race. I pity my neighbors' Japanese coworker and Japanese tutor... which is why I didn't suggest the bet, even as a joke, because no one here is stupid enough to take on a losing bet like that. I'd say that'd be $20 that'd be a sure thing.

By "at least here" you mean online, in general? Agreed (with some caveats and exceptions, of course) -- and I think a lot of that has to do with our anonymity. I can't tell from simple exchange whether you're male, female, Chinese-American or Lithuanian. Unless and until you tell me details otherwise, I've learned to see every new voice as a big blank. I've met plenty of people who do the same, because otherwise we'd get whacked when we do learn details, when the person doesn't match our assumptions based on the text. So savvy onliners work to avoid and just use big question marks until any specifics come out.

Although I like to make a joke out of it and tell people when I meet them in person, "wow, you're a lot taller online."

Eh, also: those who say you should forget about this language. You're in America now... I find it odd, the assumptions in that statement alone. I have a tattoo with a family motto, which is Gaelic. I've had numerous people see the tattoo, find out I'm of Scottish heritage, and immediately want to know if I speak Gaelic. (Me: You have GOT to be kidding.) The last part of my family that might've spoken Gaelic would've been about twelve generations ago. And when I was fluent in French and had French novels on my shelf, I did get the random person who'd repeat my (Scottish) last name and say, "is that a French name?" Because, of course, if you speak the language then you must be that culture/ethnicity, and not 'real' American...

Yet I've never had a single person look at my various Chinese dictionaries and histories sitting on my desk and ask me if I'm Chinese (oi, with these color o' eyes?!), or even ask me if I'm studying prior to (or after) travelling there. The books on Sweden got that response, though: "oh, have you been there?". Actually, the most common reaction to my Chinese texts is a baffled, "wait, you studied it?" as if it's near-incomprehensible that someone would want to, y'know, study that language.

That's in-person, though. Online, I find it mostly amusing that the average newcomer assumes 'kaigou' is Japanese, and wants to know why I'd pick 'start of meeting' (or whatever the damn phrase means) as a nickname. The biases of being in predominantly Japanese and Korean fandoms, I suppose... but I'm digressing, again.

[(Anonymous)]

Ahaha. You are probably dead on the money (and I would not take that bet). If your neighbors did ask a Japanese person to validate their ethnocentrism I think the conversation would almost comical in it's awkwardness. I know if someone said to me 'I'm not racist because I think Anime proves Asians hate themselves and want to be white, right??'I'd be desperately wheeling to come up with a more polite response than 'Kiss my yellow ass, shitface.'

By here, I meant in this post (or this little corner of internet), not necessarily online, but I do agree with you. I try to not make any assumptions when I read, for example someone's blog. I will say though, sometimes it's fun to make guesses at who people are! I'm mainly a luker in fandom, but after following the work of some authors for a number of years, I can kinda of give a guess as to where they live/what gender they are/what line of work they pursue. Anonymity is an interesting thing; we can't see each other, but we still do carry around bits and pieces of our physical situations which are visible in our thoughts/words.

Your response to the statement you should forget about this language. You're in America pretty much mirrored my response: confusion. To this day, I not sure whether people who have said that to me were trying to be personally, deliberately insulting because they knew I'm from overseas. Or if they genuinely though that English was the only acceptable language in this country.

Ether way I find the statement illogical, firstly because it's not really possible to forget an entire language. Additionally, there is the point that you correctly bought up, which is that the presence of a language does not necessarily denotate culture/race. Lastly, I think that being multilingual is an advantage, not a disadvantage, so why would I want to forget?

~Gray_Queen