duo, pay attention.

[kaigou]

This is my personal theory - we discussed it in passing at dinner on Saturday evening, but despite Sharon & Jana (I think) demurring, I hold to it. Duo, next time you come with, 'cause I want backup on this. Casey was too busy talking to DC to be much help.

Heero - suicidal not by virtue of choosing death, but by virtue of not wanting to continue the life he'd led so far; there's a subtle but important difference
Duo - far from suicidal at any point, but homicidal? hell yeah. Only willing to contemplate self-destruction when his back is against the wall and he's assured he's going to take plenty of the enemy with him.
Trowa - suicidal because he can't think of anything better to do with his time. I know that sounds odd, but that seems to be his attitude: "Oh, well, guess I'll try this, then."
Quatre - altruistically homicidal. Again, back against the wall, but he takes that route as the last option, and knowing that in doing so, he's making sure the cause itself continues.*
Wufei - the only one IIRC who never even considers the option of self-destruction, let alone tries, but that fits with his character. Knowing you're the last one surviving of your family puts a heavy burden on ya, I'd think.

*I think this is the main reason Duo later has no issues listening to Quatre's lead, and in fact seems to turn to Quatre on Peacemillion as de facto leader. If Quatre is willing to be so ruthless about his own life, he's clearly a leader who won't ask you to do something he himself wouldn't do. Compared to Heero, who may be 'the heart of outer space' but has the leadership qualities of a brick. Heero won't bother asking another to do what he'd do; he'll just go do it himself!

---

Every now and then I contemplate writing an essay or two for Zania's site, just because she doesn't have enough to code already. Gotta keep those archivists busy. *smirk* Which reminds me, I still have to post girl_starfish's new story, and if it doesn't get finished, I'm going to be stringing her up when I get to Japan next Spring.

And wah, there went my brain. Watch it go. Will add more later, when I'm done with the one-shot on Relena for A Very Late Addition to Psyche's Before the Beginning challenge. I kept meaning to write it, and then I'd get distracted, but right now I'm finding it almost impossible to make the mental leap necessary for Celia in Dancing. I've got the scene, I've got the setup, I've got Keegan ready and willing to be all supportive-y friend, and Celia won't behave. *kicks characters* More later.


EDIT: whew, got it done. only been promising for what, two months now?

( one secret )

for psyche's before the beginning challenge. rated PG, no warnings, no pairings, no cussing...just a rite of passage.

Comments

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

Sheesh, do you have to spread my homicidal tendancies all over the net? Really, I look at it as a job. A job I'm glad is pretty much over. And I hope we got through to Trowa that it's ok to have a life, now. You got everyone pretty spot on - especially Heero's brickitude and Quatre's leadership abilities. I love Q-tip, man. He's always been full of surprises.

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

I'm always amazed that anyone would call someone like Quatre "q-tip." That's kinda like looking down the barrel of an AR-15 and saying, "oh, how adorable!"

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

Only when he's doing the scary ZERO-laugh. Otherwise, Q-man is THE man!

And what's not adorable about assault weapons? *truly confused*

[kodalai.livejournal.com]

Well, the way I always saw Heero, he dislikes his current life enough that not only will he take every opportunity to self-destruct, but he'll make up opportunities if there aren't any available. At least at the beginning of the series, he seemed much more interested in self-destructing than he was in actually completing the mission.

And yeah, leadership qualities of a brick. :p Protagonist or not, he certainly doesn't play any kind of leader to the others. Hell, *Zechs* has more charisma.

he bleaches, you know

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

And that's saying something! *whispers conspiratorially* You know, I don't think ol' Zexy even realizes that Noin is actually a woman. I mean, come on! Talk about thick!

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

I think he goes into it with hope - in that he's looking forward to the notion that it's a suicide mission. It's possible that's what attracts him to it; then again, he didn't exactly have much of a life prior. Unlike Duo, I think Heero's not aware there are other options out there.

And of course Zechs is charismatic - it's the only reason I can think of for the fact that no one stuck his head in a bucket of ice water for skipping from cause, to cause, to cause, and group to group to group. Let alone re-hire him after he was Person non Grata and then Person non Exista.

Heero's charismatic kinda like a grenade or land mine would be. You're fascinated, and you'd love to see it in action, as long as you're not within the blast radius.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

All the pilots have charisma--I mean, they practically just trapse around the globe and space inspiring people. They're just a bunch of catalysts stumbling around, running into people.

However... this doesn't garauntee any of them leadership skill. I love Heero, but he couldn't plan his way out of a paper sack without changing his mind a few times in the course of things and wondering if self-detonating might not be be the better way to go. And--to extend the metaphore way beyond it's natural bounds--Duo would get up, but by tearing said sack into little pieces. Trowa might get out, or he might just hang out in the sack, 'cause hey, it isn't too bad. Wufei, well, paper is flamable.

Quatre has both the sense to get out of the sack without excessive force, and the ability to tell others how to.

Alright, now that I've created a strange, labyrinthine sack from which no mere mortal can hope to escape, I'm gonna go find some breakfast and see if I can't wake up a bit.

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

Heh, dude, that's right on the money. I like the way you think. Ano... you didn't really need that paper bag in one piece, did you? ;)

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Nah, I know better than to hope to get the bag back in one piece.

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

and you'd love to see it in action, as long as you're not within the blast radius.</>

Boy howdy!

[driftingdoll.livejournal.com]

If you write an essay, I'll post it ;) Those aren't too hard to code! And they don't come along too often!

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

Hmph, y'know, you owe me at least six paragraphs for the code I sent you today. I'll live with three paragraphs. Two hundred words! Come on, babe, it's not that hard. Just type one word after the other, and keep going, and the next thing you know...you've got a whole half-page! *gasp*

Well, if I come up with anything, I will send it your way. Don't know if that falls within Tyr's guidelines for archiving, but I suppose I'll send it to both of you. Btw, CP says hello and wants to know when everyone's coming back to visit again. Uh, just as long as it's not before next Tuesday - damn it, we still don't have a stove. Next Tuesday, they promise. Yeah, I rolled out the glare pretty strongly at that point, but it's a good thing I don't have a concealed carry permit in this state...

[caseyvalhalla.livejournal.com]

Casey was too busy talking to DC to be much help.

Do I detect a hint of jealousy? Please, I talk to you every day. If not in person, but heck.

And by now you should know that I agree with you in nearly every respect when it comes to characterizations. I'd add that in Wufei's case, following the suicide discussion, as the warrior of the group I'm sure he would consider suicide as the coward's way out, although I doubt he would be opposed to dying honorably in battle if he couldn't help it.

With Duo I definitely agree with you, since watching the series I never found any real indication that he wanted to die -- rather several indications that he was afraid of dying, but, as commented, if he didn't have a choice he'd make damn sure he took everyone within a hundred-mile radius with him. I'd be more concerned about him becoming a serial killer, actually... yanno, the whole god-of-death thing, not denying the boy has some issues... anyway, what you have to look at is that Duo isn't a soldier, he's a civillian, and thus his thought processes when it comes to battle and whether or not it's necessary to die are going to be decidedly different than Heero or Trowa, since they're both trained soldiers and view their own deaths as an acceptable loss. Duo fights to win, and that may be what ultimately makes him the best pilot among the five.

Woo, look at me getting all philosophical. Wow.

I'm always amazed that anyone would call someone like Quatre "q-tip." That's kinda like looking down the barrel of an AR-15 and saying, "oh, how adorable!"

ROTFL. I think I've made the statement before, but anyone who thinks that Quatre is sweet and innocent has apparently not only forgotten that whole Zero episode, but also the fact that although Quatre gives the enemy the opportunity to surrender, he still kills them just as efficiently when they refuse. I'd liken the misinterpretation to that of Kurama in the YYH fandom -- both may give off the impression of sweetness and light, but they're both intelligent and extremely ruthless and would probably kill off a large population of fangirls if they knew what's been done to them in fanfics.

Btw, CP says hello and wants to know when everyone's coming back to visit again.

*goes off to huddle in a corner in the fetal position, rocking back and forth and muttering something about airports*

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

Serial killer? Naw, I doubt that's Duo - of the five, remember, he grew up surrounded by death. This is the kid who said he doesn't believe in Father Maxwell's God 'cause he's never seen a miracle, but he believes in the God of Death 'cause he's seen plenty of dead bodies. Several of those, too, were ones he cared about. This is ignoring that Ep Zero and the novelizations are only semi-canon, but his sardonic attitude during the series (and his emphasis on the future, unlike any of the rest but perhaps Quatre), contradicts any chance that he'd retain the God of Death persona once it could be put away.

Of the five, I think Heero goes through the most character development, followed by Quatre, Wufei, and then Trowa. Duo swings forward and then back, settling into the determination he had at the beginning. Heero, though, goes from "whatever I have to do to achieve peace (inside me)" to shifting that focus to an external source, that includes living past the war - his development centers around finding a 'reason' (Relena's cause and/or Relena) that exists independently of himself. The drawback to this development is that he never really assimilates the notion that he's become invaluable; he's now expendable to someone else's cause instead of his own, is all. Quatre also moves from internal justification to external. Trowa and Wufei move less so; their discoveries are more about themselves (Trowa's amnesia, Wufei's loss of his family) and their battles remain in the realm of the individual - finding a heart, finding a soul.

I'm not putting this well, but I do agree that Duo's battle is to win - as opposed to Wufei's, which is to conquer himself. Duo doesn't seem to feel the need to beat himself or better himself in that sense. Then again, of the five, Duo is also the most politically aware, and Heero is probably the most idealistic and naive. Quatre's development includes a shift from idealism to political awareness, but Wufei and Trowa never seem to include that step. Trowa's aware, no doubt, as part of his infiltration, but he doesn't seem to put himself in the picture. He's the eternal observer, in that context.

Heh, Quatre! I remember Arith reminding me that Quatre's all sweetness and light but damned if he wasn't sporting an automatic rifle and blowing the soldiers away when it came time to escape with Heero. Quatre is in some ways the opposite of Trowa - where Trowa seems impassive and stern, Quatre is gentle and empathic. But Trowa isn't even half as ruthless as Quatre, although he can wear the mask (like when he pressures Une). It's Quatre that's ruthless and even brutal, at times.

Curiously, I rarely see anyone give a nod to the fact that of the five, it's Wufei who aligns most quickly with Zero. It shows him the options, he sees/understands, makes up his mind, and that's the end of it. Zero, if anything, is what makes it clear to Wufei that he's no longer fighting alone. Quatre has his nightmare with Zero - revealing just how ruthless he is - but it takes Heero to get Quatre to go back into that and find his way out again. I'm not convinced Heero ever finds his own way out, however. He doesn't seem to have a single instance (not counting his last stand in EW) where he's not a raving ball of bewildered passion by the end of a Zero-interaction.

Next time, take the train and plan ahead for a week's travel!

*crawls off to bed*

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

You know, I never could get a handle on the idea of Wufei-the-Warrior. Not that I think he isn't, to an extent, but he's also possibly the most wrapped up in his own vendetta. And like all the pilots, civilian and soldier kinda get kicked to the side in my mind in favor of terrorist. Wufei first on that list; while everyone else is taking out weapons facilities and foo, he hits a training center.

And sets it on fire, as I recall. Hmm. Must rewatch.

Duo and He actually always struck me as probably the most terrorist of the group. Heero is an assassin; Trowa, a mercenary; Quatre has that nice little spark of ideology that lets you characterize him as a revolutionary. Duo and Wufei, though, both have that vibe of having been pushed, and really wanting to push back. How they go about it is very different, but I see that in both.

Heh... I'd go into my Duo/death theories, but I've probably already spammed Sol's journal enough. I just can't pass up a characterization discussion, though. ^_^;;

[caseyvalhalla.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you bring this up; Sol and I got into a discussion this past weekend over whether or not the term "terrorist" was an accurate descriptor for the five pilots. I'm not certain myself, but so many authors use it, even in post-9-11 America. That's not why I question the use of the word, but I wonder if the definition really matches the actions of the Fab Five in the series.

Let's go to the dictionary! [I'm not being a smartass, really, I'm just now looking it up since I'm thinking about it at the moment.]

n. One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

Okay, not helpful.

terrorism - n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Okay, some of that fits -- I'd question the 'against people or property' part. The problem that Sol and I ran into, discussing the term, was whether or not a terrorist was defined as one who terrorized civillians specifically, which the pilots never did. Even though Wufei attacked a training center, it was still a *military* training center, and as I recall in most cases it was fairly specific that the pilots were absolutely not allowed to harm civillians. I could be remembering wrong, but that would be the root of my questioning of the term. I've never used it personally, but I haven't done any major in-canon pieces (yet). Anyway, just a thought, maybe you and/or someone else could expound further on the subject.

Duo and Wufei, though, both have that vibe of having been pushed, and really wanting to push back. How they go about it is very different, but I see that in both.

Ooo, excellent point! *wheels churning in brain* Yes, there is that sort of... *fire* to what they do, as opposed to the other three acting more out of ideals and a sense of duty.

Damn, I love conversations like this. Suitably thought-provoking and distracting at the same time. *wanders off to possibly finish that damn chapter...*

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Hm. My dictionary isn't too much more helpful.

Terrorist is sort of an interesting word in and off itself post 9-11. It's not like it had good implications before hand, but afterward, it acquired a whole new load of baggage. It's always interesting when an event has so much impacted that it actually influences the language for awhile. Like going postal. Or Waco. Though I've used both those terms around eighteen year olds and been met with blank incomprehension. Come on--I'm not that old!

Anyway, before I can go off on another tangent or let myself wander too far into the vagaries of implications, I'll make the point that I started writing this to make.

I do think that terrorist is the most accurate general term I can come up with for the boys. Soldier falls short for me because it implies (damn it! There I go again) a government sanction, or at least a group affiliation. They're fighting for the colonies to start with, and despite the doctors, they answer only to themselves. It's not the perfect term, no, but if they have to be labeled as something, I think terrorist would have to be it. No, they aren't targeting civilians, but I do think that they know better to think that the five of them could actually single handedly take on an existing governing body. The idea behind it (I have to assume) was to frighten the Alliance into changing their policies toward the colonies.

Of course, then everything started going crazy and the situation definitely changed quite a bit.

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

Soldier falls short for me because it implies (damn it! There I go again) a government sanction, or at least a group affiliation. They're fighting for the colonies to start with, and despite the doctors, they answer only to themselves.

Well, hold on. Wasn't Operation Meteor sponsored for, paid for, and created by the Barton Foundation to further a political agenda? Regardless of whether the 'fight for the colonies' is a cover or a true purpose, I've never gotten the impression that the Barton Foundation/Family gave much of a damn what the colonies wanted/needed. If there is any connection between the plotline of GWing and reality, it might be in the various revolutionary actions. It falls somewhere between the American Revolution (in terms of distant colonies wanting some kind of self-government and self-determination), and the Meiji Revolution in which the revolutionaries were seeking to reinstate an earlier political setup - since the impression I get from GWing is that the situation has deteriorated but at some point the colonies did have a level of self-supporting/determining rights/power.

However, Operation Meteor obviously falls apart soon after the pilots are sent on their way. EW reveals this was on the part of the Mad Five - such as Quatre's teacher ripping the electronics out to stymie the messages - but there are implications that both Duo and Heero were still receiving orders and/or mission suggestions from their mentors up until Heero's self-detonation.

I think it comes down to whether or not one is self-appointed. Clearly the five boys weren't; each were chosen for one reason or another (however arbitrary, like in Trowa's case). As forerunners of a cause, I might label them revolutionaries more than terrorists, and Duo wouldn't be the first to fight in a revolution with his own private agenda. As long as it aligns with the overall goal (freedom for the colonies), I think a selfish purpose is forgivable or at least understandable.

Man, I have no idea why I'm going on. Oh, right, I do. I have a chapter to write where Spark wanders the streets of DC, falls asleep, and her shoes are stolen, and I just don't want to go there right now. So, uh, anyway...

Keep in mind that GWing (unlike the other Gundam series) is a super-Gundam. Those boys carve through MS like they're butter - in the other series, Gundams aren't much more than slightly hyped-up compared to the competition. In GWing, the only real enemy of any value that a G-boys faces, in the end, is himself. If you keep that in mind, then yes, it's entirely possible that five unbeatable and almost indesctructible machines would most definitely scare the living daylights out of the Alliance. I think that's why it's worth noting that the first time a Gundam hits the dust isn't because it's taken down by a fleet of Leos - it's because the pilot himself chose to stop fighting and destroy the beast.

Even in EW, it's only implied that they act with government/Preventer sanction - for the most part, they don't. They simply see what has to be done, and continuing the independent streak that developed when they were cut off from support in the series, they go and do it. I'm not sure if that makes them terrorists...but then, history is written by the victors. In both cases (series and ova), G-boys are victors. The American Revolution was successful, and we call them revolutionaries; if it had been a spectacular failure, would they be no better than the Southerners who seceeded?

Okay, I do need sleep now. Gotta long day ahead of me and that chapter's not writing itself...

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

I'll give you revolutionaries. But I don't know that the terms revolutionary and terrorist are mutually exclusive. Revolutionaries can, and often do, use terrorist and guerilla tactics.

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

The tactics are independent of the title, I'd think. After all, prior to the American Revolution, guerilla tactics were out of the question for most fighting forces in the Western world. It was only once the Gen du Bois had trounced the Brits a number of times (by using the guerilla tactics taught to them by the Native Americans) that people started wising up. Okay, so the Brits kept lining up in their neat little lines according to the rules of engagement but...heh.

I guess, what's a guerilla tactic compared to a terrorist tactic? Thinking over the examples in history that are known as one or the other, I'd think a guerilla tactic has the following qualities, kinda like in a three-out-of-four-then-it's-this: involves a group of people attacking, requires stealth and sneak attacks, ignores the traditional rules of engagements (in terms of open fighting field and identification of enemy), tends to be hit-and-run flyby attacks rather than extended engagements, yet there's definitely an organization to the group performing the guerilla tactics.

I see terrorism as having many of the same qualities except that in every instance where it's a terrorist action, it's not a group of people working in an organized manner. It's usually individuals focusing their wrath and destructive firepower on citizens. Think of people who turn themselves into bombs, or hijack planes full of bystanders. So a guerilla tactic can still be guerilla but with the added element of terrorism if the attack is focused on civilians - attacking the local mall instead of the court house, for instance.

We've had the notion of 'guerilla tactics' for over two hundred years, thanks to the Iroquois Confederacy, who used them ruthlessly and to great success for a long time. But terrorist is essentially a modern notion, although we may apply it after the fact to previous events. The problem with it being a somewhat new term is that it's not entirely nailed down what is, or is not, terrorist (nor may it ever be). I'm curious. Does anyone know the Japanese term used to describe the boys, in GWing? Are they ever referred to with any of the terms - freedom fighter, terrorist, guerilla, revoluntionary? Wondering what the cultural implications are within any Japanese terms, too.

Anyway, the highlight of Gundam (all the Gundams) are their complexity, even if GWing didn't really succeed in squeezing its plotline effectively into only 52 episodes. The boys started as revolutionaries, became terrorists when they lost the backing of the colonies, used guerilla tactics...and then they get to space, are faced with White Fang, OZ, and who-knows-else - and at that point (when Quatre comes into leadership, pretty much) their tactics also change dramatically, and their guerilla efforts fall by the wayside. They're pretty much following traditional rules of engagement when they depart Peacemillion for those last few fights - staged in open area, stealth not used, fight continues for so long then both sides withdraw to regroup.

I have no idea what they'd be, then, since how many people were aware Zechs planned on dropping Libra on the planet? Are you acting as a military force for right if 99% of the watching population isn't aware of what you're stopping until after the fact?

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

I was trying to remember what they called the pilots in the anime earlier--if they use any particular terms. I'm not actually coming up with any, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. It's one of those things that you miss out on when you deal with something out of its original language. It may well be that there's a Japanese term that gets translated as "soldiers," but in context means something more along the lines of "soldiers with a cause" or something.

Bah.

I'll agree that one of the problems with this argument is that "terrorist" doesn't have a nicely squared and agreed upon meaning.

In my mind, a terrorist isn't exclusively someone who attacks civillians. It's more a question of method than target. But I realize that many people see violence against society at large being implicit. *shrugs*

[kodalai.livejournal.com]

Blah. I've gone over the "terrorist or not terrorist" argument a bunch of times. I still don't think it applies to them. There's always, of course, the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," so of course if you *want* to apply the label to them you can always find a way to make it fit. I just don't think it *does* fit.

A terrorist, in my book, is a person or group of people who decides that they can't win their objectives by fighting with military force, so they take the population hostage to force a government into a course of action. The Gundam pilots aren't there yet -- they're still at the military step. They target *only* military targets. They don't go after civilian targets.

They aren't out to spread terror and shatter the people's faith in the government; they're out to break its military dominance. They fight *soldiers,* and they fight them up front, with the military technology of the day. They aren't destroying croplands to try and starve OZ out, or economic centers to try and bankrupt them. They don't attempt to assassinate heads of state in order to throw the government into chaos. (Yes, Heero tried to kill both Relena and Treize, but he didn't do it, did he? -- nor is Heero ever particularly clear on what he's really trying to do.)

In terms of techniques and aims, OZ comes closer to terrorists acts -- like when Une took an entire colony hostage and threatened to blow it up if the Gundams didn't surrender, or when OZ blew up a civilian rally to try and pin the blame on Quatre's father (did that actually happen in the anime, or just in the manga?) or plant bombs in the entire city the Maguanacs were staying at to smoke them out -- just to name a few examples; they're more terrorists than the Gundam pilots will ever be. While it would be stupid to say that the pilots themselves fought a clean and moral war -- it'd be stupid of them to DO it -- their attacks are, one and always, directed against soldiers. And frankly, when you sign on the dotted line that turns you from civilian to soldier, then you lose the right to claim moral outrage when you're killed in combat.

About the only thing that makes the pilots 'terrorists' is that they're operating without the official backing of a national government. But aren't they trying to *create* a self-government in the colonies? If that's all it takes to make a terrorist, I think our Founding Fathers have some explaining to do.

--Right, that last paragraph was totally slanted rhetoric. I admit that the line between "revolutionary" and "terrorist" is also a fuzzy one, and that the pilots have spent time on both sides of it. But isn't there a truism about treason never winning, because if it should succeed, then none dare call it treason? If they didn't manage to free the colonies, would that make them terrorists? If they did, would that make them patriots?

It's a semantic debate. (Which, unfortunately, doesn't make it an irrelevant one; just one with no clear answer.)

The idea behind it (I have to assume) was to frighten the Alliance into changing their policies toward the colonies.

...even allowing that's true... what is a weapon if not a device to make your enemy change your mind? That's the tactic used in *any* military maneuvers, not just the ones employed by terrorists.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

...what is a weapon if not a device to make your enemy change your mind?

Something that takes your enemies entirely out of the equation?

The freedom fighter/terrorist is a blurry line. I think the French Revolution trampled it so thoroughly that even if people knew where it fell before hand. In general, yeah, it seems to come down to that addage about the winners writing history.

In the end have to admit that in the end I think it depends on the author. Some would rather characterize the pilots as terrorist, others as revolutionaries. Or both. I think there's definitely enough ammunition to support either interpretation.

Partially my own preference of terrorist at this particular moment comes from the fact that the word itself is more amoral in my mind. *shrugs* I actually don't like a lot of the terms I come across because many of them seem to become pretentious. "Warrior," of instance, tends to wear on my nerves in canon fics. Not because of any intrinsic virtue of the word, but it carries a certain romanticism that turns me off. I can see many reasons other people would be equally put off by "terrorist."

[kodalai.livejournal.com]

Something that takes your enemies entirely out of the equation?

On the small scale, perhaps, but impractical in the long run, since I think there's yet to be a single historical example of exterminating your enemy nation so thoroughly that there are no remnants and no survivors. One side or the other always has to come to the conclusion that the fight is no longer worth fighting, and the goals are no longer worth the losses gained in pursuing them. That's what war is really about; not to kill your enemy, but to make him decide it's easier to give you what you want than to continue with the war.

...Of course, there might be some people who decide to go to war for other reasons, but they generally aren't in their right minds, and in the long run, the larger picture tends to win out.

But to apply it to this situation: What was OZ doing with its weapons? Attempting to convince the colonies to submit to its rule and offer up their resources. Destroying the colonies would have been counterproductive. What were the Gundams doing with their weapons? Attempting to convince OZ to leave the colonies alone. Even Duo, who openly admitted that his personal motivation was revenge for the wrongs done to him, knew better than to think he could kill everyone in OZ, not even for the sake of personal revenge.

Then you get nutballs like Quatre deciding that the conflict would end if all the Colonies with weapons were destroyed, or Zechs deciding that the conflict would end if Earth was destroyed, but then, these people weren't exactly in their right mind, and their tactics are universally condemned as being 1) counterproductive, 2) rather terrorist, and 3) batshit insane.

I'm no longer quite sure what point I was trying to argue...

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

No, certainly not in their right mind. Sort of like cutting off your toes to avoid stubbing them.

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

The other thing to keep in mind, I suppose, is our own slant as Westerners/Americans. I recall when I was studying comparitive government and my professor mentioned something about violence in the US. At the time, there was a rash of abortion clinic bombings, and while there are people who feel this way or that about the legality and/or morality of abortion, the bottom line was that even people who believed in the cause disagreed with the use of violence (and even murder) as a means to achieve a goal. There are always a fringe few who think the ends will justify the means, but in the US we tend to lean towards using the processes and precedents set up for peaceful resolution of such issues. Violence in pursuit of a cause often loses more people than it gains.

I was discussing nonviolence the other day with CP and JH, and JH commented that Ghandi's concept of nonviolence - used to great end by King - really only works if you have three hundred, three thousand, etc people standing in ranks with you. Three people alone are just hustled off as bothersome. Nonviolence as an option only works at great numbers; in that respect, it seems the few in the GWing world who wanted a resolution were perhaps just not enough to make non-violence an option. Certainly five kids together wouldn't do much.

Perhaps that's one of the things EW was seeking to resolve - I think so, at least. Given the anti-war, pro-pacifism of the series, it was still rather bleak and unlikely. Let's take away all the guns - and EW was a play-out of how little people would then be able to defend themselves. Who was it who said again that 'an armed society is a polite society'?

I'm getting off-topic.

Uh. What was the topic again?

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

You know, I'd add in my two cents, but it would make a pitiful little noise on the piles of c-notes you people are tossing down. I guess I'll just interrupt long enough to say that I like this conversation. You all rock.

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

Go ahead, jump in. Don't let these folks intimidate you - these are simply the sorts of conversations I like to cultivate. Besides, I find that if two (or more) people were to throw down in person on matters of politics and personal agenda with real-world situations, more often than not there's no real achievement. Either we're preaching to the choir or you're never going to agree with me and we both end up frustrated on some level. We keep it marginally in the world of literature/fiction, and I find it easier to consider alternate views because it's not as personally threatening.

Besides, I'd much rather discuss the issues of war, philosophy, gender, terrorism, and politics with Heero and Duo in the picture. No offense, but neither Kerry nor Bush nor any other world leader is nearly as cute. Cause, y'know, that's all that really matters. TEH CUTENESS.

Yeah.

And something.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

They both have less charisma, too. >_

[caseyvalhalla.livejournal.com]

*runs by waving a "Quatre For President" banner*

He can run Independent. God knows we need a third party...

[caseyvalhalla.livejournal.com]

Gah! Kickass idea! Fanfic challenge!

*runs off to work out the details*

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

Oh, no.

Time to back away slowly from the fanfic writer...Duo, I'm blaming you! Somehow, I know this is your fault!

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

It's not my fault! Not this time! I was doing something entirely different in a nother place at the time... uh, not that there are witnesses...

Can Quatre even run for President? I thought I was the only American. :P

[kodalai.livejournal.com]

Not even Edwards?

[pixiepilot.livejournal.com]

Did you just insinuate that I was intimidated? *frowns and thinks of a suitable revenge* (And here I thought Gundam Wing fandom was on it's last legs. *sniff* It feels like coming home.) :P

Cuteness scale for Presidential Candidates

Kerry = TEH UNCUTE (Unless you like basset hounds with really thick eyebrows)
Cheney = grumpy, but the chrome dome helps
Bush = nice grin, not cute
Edwards = cute as a Barbie doll. And about as real.

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Cheney is scary--I'm pretty sure finding him cute would count as having necrophile tendancies. >_<

I have no idea what I'm doing, but here goes...

[(Anonymous)]

Hey all!

Erm. My name is Maldoror, and this is my first time posting in a live journal *blush*. I'm only doing so because Sol ordered me to. I'm actually quite a shy person, and I prefer to sit in my corner and write my pretty fics, in which I like to explore the romantic aspects of GW, and the deeply misunderstood, angsty teens that are its heroes, though I always have a happy end, so that everybody gets the warm fuzzies.

And I think Quatre is as cute as a button.

The kind you find on self-detonation switches, of course.

Right. This was a fascinating thread to read, and often quite hilarious *snarf, paper bag, chuckle*. I hope I'm up to contributing something half-way interesting, if not intelligent (don't ask me for too much...)

The terrorist/freedom fighter thing is the kind of stuff that kept us up all night when we were young and stup- motivated, and wanted to remake the world. Now, I've lived in quite a few countries, have several nationalities, none of which I can look at without bursting into fits of laughter, and, strangely enough, I was in three different cities at the time of terrorist attacks on them (four, if you count the fact I was in NY a few weeks before Sept 11).

Erm, the above is uniquely the result of one of those strange coincidences and if you know anybody from any country's national security please mention that fact to them.

So, my view on it is:

- If you're the nation being oppressed by another country, whose economy is being ruined for someone else's profit, whose freedoms to protest and print are being denied blah blah blah, then it's Freedom Fighters, because when you don't have an army or weapons you take any means at your disposal.

- If you're part of the nation being bombed by aforementioned freedom fighters, and you realize that the other country would be in just as big an economic mess if they had their own govt to do the job (after all, yours is screwing you over, politicians are all the same) and bombs are blowing up in your neighborhood, then they're terrorists.

- If you're part of neither nation but just happened to be wandering by, then everybody concerned is an idiot and they should all be locked up in a small football field until they see sense or kill each other, and let you get on with your job (this is me).

Oh by the way, these observations were not made from current news, but from my own birds-eye view on the England/Ireland question (6 years living in the UK, bay-bee!), which has been going on for well-nigh 60 years, or more, depending on who you ask, and that goes to show that people never learn.

So that's my 2 cents on that part of the debate, but since I live in Canada now, don't think that amounts to much.

Re: I have no idea what I'm doing, but here goes...

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

My name is Maldoror, and this is my first time posting in a live journal *blush*. I'm only doing so because Sol ordered me to. I'm actually quite a shy person, and I prefer to sit in my corner and write my pretty fics, in which I like to explore the romantic aspects of GW, and the deeply misunderstood, angsty teens that are its heroes, though I always have a happy end, so that everybody gets the warm fuzzies.

Who are you, and what did you do with the REAL Maldoror?

two cents canadian is worth what, .07 cents american?

I suppose the fourth and fifth categories then would be:

- If you're a set of members being oppressed by your own nation, who decide the time has come for a new government, then you're Revolutionaries.

- If you're a set of members who are being squashed by a conquering nation and its puppet government then you're a Resistance force.

Of those five, I'd say the Gundam pilots probably fall most often into the Resistence Force category, since IIRC the Earth Sphere Alliance has comandeered the colonies at the beginning of the series, and has essentially introduced martial law. I don't recall the pilots (or the colonies) seeking an entirely new government, which would be a major part of revolution and/or civil war. They seem instead to just want to throw off the yoke of their oppressors and self-govern, so perhaps Resistance is the best word for the Gundam's original affiliation.

A'course, that does all go to hell in a handbasket when the colonies withdraw their support of the Gundams. Once the Gundams lose that appointed status, they're freedom fighters at most, terrorists at worst. Or something.

And don't forget that whole craziness of not wanting to support White Fang. I've always wondered about that - the utter arrogance of saying the colonists shouldn't fight for themselves. What was it White Fang wanted that was so repugnant, again? Other than letting dogs and cats live together in sin, I didn't get the impression White Fang's purposes were that much off the Gundam's original purpose - the whole "drop Libra into the oceans" was a Zechs notion, I thought?

Oh, and I have some stuff about the original topic too!

[(Anonymous)]

I loved the talks about the series! Some really good character points were made *nod nod*. In fact, we probably put more thought into it in just this thread than the series' creators put into EW!

Though I get kinda giggly when someone starts digging deeply into the characterisation or the politics of GW. I love the series. I saw it twice, bought the box set and watched it again with my husband. It's adorable, it refuses to take the easy way out (ie Good vs Bad), it raises some interesting questions, it has plot holes you can drive a Gundam through. Hmmm, love it.

Just to take one of many, many aspects on which I could wax lyrical: The Philosophy! I mean, the politics are interesting, and they make a stab at 'real Politiks' which is creditable. They often miss by a mile, but I give them points for efforts, and occasionally they are on target.
Of course, if the philosophy and politics boil down to War Is Bad, as personified by Relena, we have to wonder why she's always shown to be wrong. I mean, every time she gets a shot at the limelight, or a chance to prove her ideals, she gets shot down, sometimes literally, and then Heero gets to save her ass. If you think about it, does Relena ever do ANYTHING that actually sticks and makes a difference, without it getting subsumed by someone else's cause? Apart from being a vague motivating force for Heero that is. Hmm. Well, the thing to remember, I guess, is that this is anime. It'll take a stab at important and interesting questions but above all its about fun and looking cool. I mean, if Relena and some of the other people in the series had their say, the series would be about long debates around a table to decide on peaceful cooperation, bi-lateral disarmament, and treaties.

Whereas cooking up a plan to make a general massacre of two armies or blowing up parts of the earth to discourage mankind from making war, as a plan, makes less sense but is infitinely more fun to watch.

Besides, though the series wants us to know that War is Bad, and Fighting Is Bad, it also wants us to know that nothing, I mean, nothing, is gonna stop them from putting five very pretty teenagers into massive mecha to kick ass. As Sol said, it's all about The Cuteness!

Another thing that amuses me about the series is this notion that it's okay for the G-boys to kick ass (everybody else who does that is Wrong), because they are, to quote half the female groupies in GW (Noin, Sally and Une, in roughly that order), 'so pure'. Ie, so right. I assume.
Now this generally makes me fall out of my chair laughing hysterically and scaring the cat. They're fifteen-year-olds (I wouldn't give most fifteen-year-olds boys a slingshot) who are hardly poster-boys for stability, or indeed, sanity. They spend 90% of the series being wrong, used, confused, betrayed, stranded around helplessly, blowing themselves up, trying to blow themselves up, being beaten by their enemies and captured, being freed by their other enemies because of some ulterior motive, being directed by five extremely creepy old guys who may or may not be nut jobs, brain-f*$& by Zero, and a lot more. Then they blow up a lot of mobile dolls, and have the occasional fit of angst or philosophical discussion. THey change their mind almost as frequently as Zechs 'Plot Device' Marquise. Even at the end, Treize and Une have more to do about bringing Peace than the boys.
But that's okay because they're cute, and they're the heroes! And they get to blow up Libra. And look really good doing so.

So the philosophy and political slogan I got out of GW is:

Life is a lot more complicated than you think, and then a Gundam steps on you.

Personally I've adopted this as my own life-defining motto, and I'm very happy with it.

SOl, over to you!

It's not even my turn....

[sarolynne.livejournal.com]

Though I get kinda giggly when someone starts digging deeply into the characterisation or the politics of GW. I love the series. I saw it twice, bought the box set and watched it again with my husband. It's adorable, it refuses to take the easy way out (ie Good vs Bad), it raises some interesting questions, it has plot holes you can drive a Gundam through. Hmmm, love it.

*laughs!!* One of my friends watched GW because her husband is into anime. I told her that it was one I enjoyed.

She called me a week later after watching the first DVD and said, much confussion in her voice, "I can't tell who the good guys are." The only person she was pretty sure was good was Quatre. After much laughing on my part and that particular silence that means that someone is looking at the phone as though it has lost its mind in lieu of you, I managed to ask if she included Duo in that.

When she took that question seriously, I laughed some more.

There is a point to this, believe it or not, and it's not even that not everyone can spot Gundam Wing's charm. My friend never did get into it, and a big part of it was that she never could really pin down the dynamics of it. She wanted to be able to say, These guys are good, and these guys are bad. She wanted the heroes to be real heroes, which they are (I suppose) at the end, and in EW. When pressed, my friend was fairly sure Relena was the real protagonist because she was the character who grew the most in her mind, and had the clearest epiphany.

*sniffles* She never did really warm up to Duo.

She then asked me how I could devote so much time and energy to contemplating fictional characters that aren't even that deep, but very ambiguous.

When I told her the ambiguity was why is was so interesting, it led to more of that phone silence.

Re: It's not even my turn....

[solitude1056.livejournal.com]

I find people understand better if you tell them, "these aren't characters so much as archetypes." Putting it all into the realm of myth - where it's not always clear how or why so-and-so does such-and-such, but that this is simply the next step in the myth. I mean, just why does Inanna (IIRC) throw the wrench in the friendship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu? Why does Maeve decide she has to have those five bulls? Who knows! There's no visible motivation or character development, but that's okay. It's myth.

So, yeah. Ambiguity is the best thing about the series. Oodles and oodles of hours of 'why', 'how', and 'what if.'