what I could really use

[kaigou]

I think I've mentioned this before, but I think I need the reverse of what I've seen requested by other writers (or maybe writers similar to me just don't go around saying this where I can hear/read them): I need someone not to say, "expand here, explain this," but to say, "this, this, this, and this, can go."

Not saying I would automatically then delete (as in: not saying the idea is to allow someone else to fully edit on my behalf) but because I can always see a valid argument for retaining this section of a scene, that bit of exchange, and think, okay, this is information the reader needs. It would be good to have someone else willing to be brutal, and give me a kind of lesson-plan for teasing how their justification/reaction, and start to develop a process of my own. Kind of like saying I know what gets scenes to the semi-finalists' round, but not to the finalists' round, so if I could watch someone else do the judging and compare it to how I would have judged, I might learn something useful.

I've never really managed that well, I think, and I suspect that's part of the reason I can hit such a high word count so easily, so fast.

Of course, the other reason for a high word count is because I have real trouble reeling myself in against intricate plots driven by significant interpersonal tensions. I like 'em best when not fully explained but hinting at a whole past that motivates the present. Like having two characters who appear like they should get along fine, but there's always a subtle unexplained tension.

I imagine it doesn't help, either, that I also adore and use business regularly, but that's for another post.

Comments

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

I need someone not to say, "expand here, explain this," but to say, "this, this, this, and this, can go."

::cough:: Not to be all pushy about things, but this? Is what I do best. Just sayin'. (The last thing I critiqued with any seriousness, there's at least one note inserted that begins, "Oh, the humanity! As you see, I would cut this whole following section...")

My rule of thumb is that if you think you can cut it, then it needs to go.

Then roughly half of the rest should probably go, too.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I have no problem doing it for other people, and reading your response, I think this is possibly because I can see the result of a scene but don't know the author's mental justification (of what else the scene may contain, such as foreshadowing or subtle explanations for other issues).

I'm thinking that the first tactic should be to create a secondary outline that delineates the value of every section -- ie, "explains A and B, foreshadows C, introduces D" -- and then see where there's redundancy. And then, having cut as much as I can see should be cut, turn the uncut version over & see what someone (who is NOT me!) would cut, and compare the two results. That might be the most useful, to get a better grasp on judging -- to see if I have any sort of a handle on being objective, on judging these things.

*ponders*

[sil-leg.livejournal.com]

First week of work and I've been trying to do a proper work load while having no idea where anything is, whatever's for, you say the objective is what again? Plus I can't get into work early since I don't have the access card yet and will have to wait for someone to let me in. I'll really try my best again on friday night and sunday. Sorry for the delay. :(

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Oi, no way, if you're working, stay on that and get on top of that game before focusing on anything I'm doing! No worries, and just pop back up when you feel all comfy work-wise. ;)

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

I need someone not to say, "expand here, explain this," but to say, "this, this, this, and this, can go."

...I can always see a valid argument for retaining this section of a scene, that bit of exchange, and think, okay, this is information the reader needs.

Not to sound like a complete bitch, but it's possible you're getting the "expand/explain" feedback instead of "cut cut cut," despite your skyrocketing word count, because the scenes you're writing aren't pulling their weight the way they should.

I haven't seen your work, of course. It's just the simplest explanation occurring to me.

But then -- and this is why I don't show anything but full drafts anymore -- it's possible people want explanations for things that can be figured out once they have the whole text in front of them. Are you getting this feedback on truncated pieces or the story as a whole?

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

it's possible you're getting the "expand/explain" feedback instead of "cut cut cut," despite your skyrocketing word count, because the scenes you're writing aren't pulling their weight the way they should.

Nope*. Fact is, I almost never get the "expand/explain" feedback. (Unless we count this common exchange: "in the second part, so-and-so mentions such-and-such and the other person changes the subject... what was that about?" and I still don't explain or expand because it's backstory or foreshadowing or summary-of-tension.)

[*ETA: that is, whether it's because scenes are pulling their own weight... well, that's something I sometimes have trouble figuring out -- whether I could combine this and that, and get one strong scene instead. It's possible the lack of call to expand/explain is because the scenes are too many, and none therefore really pack a whallop? Not sure.]

The skyrocketing word count, most simplistically, is due to the fact that a) I tend to write large casts -- even when the focus should be on two people, there are always peripheral characters coming & going. And b) I dislike obvious villains, so I tend to write three or four bad guys, to up the stakes & make the good guys work even harder to figure out which end is up. And c) I add business, in the technical sense, not the financial sense.

Most of the folks who read me as beta, now, know that I will front-load lots of questions, and if they ask as-they-read, either I say, "you'll find out," or I say, "oh, should address that at some point" -- which is why I keep feedback and reread when revising, to see how important those questions become in the greater scheme.

As I'm going through summing up scenes (as part of assessing weight), I'm realizing this evening that a lot of the word-count is actually because I always start characters off as conflicting, even if later they're allies -- which means there's more work to get them from combative to working together. Each bit may be small, but it adds up.

That last part, maybe, is where I don't know (or trust?) when enough will satisfy the 'showing, not telling'. It makes me think of when I do animated gifs -- that if there's frames 1 through 5, it's possible to drop 2 and 4 because our minds fill in the gap to turn 1, 3, and 5 into a smooth series. Make sense?

Basically: no, I think the feedback I do get is one of the things that keeps my word count lower -- because I think, oh, that scene would be good for points a, b, or c, but man, I've made these poor folks read enough already!

[muffiewrites.livejournal.com]

The Stephen King syndrome! I read in an interview/book/something that he just couldn't write short stories or books because he couldn't not develop anything he wrote into something long and involved. If you've read his stuff, it's all highly character driven.

I've read your stuff. Dunno how it's changed in the intervening year-ish, though. Are you balancing character development and plot development? Are you developing character just to develop character? Are you using character development to develop the plot? It can be difficult to tell, particularly if you're someone who's really into intricate, character driven plots. Which I think you are. And here I go diagnosing things I have no business doing. Shuttin' up.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Are you balancing character development and plot development? Are you developing character just to develop character? Are you using character development to develop the plot?

Yes.

You don't have to shut up. You need to unshutup more often, actually. I miss having your snark around! But yes, I think that's one of the problems, that to move the plot forward, I lean heavily on character development, which means that some aspects (such as subplot movement) must occur to create character development (in some cases) to then push the plot in an organic direction. I'm working on it, I yam, but man.

It would probably be a lot easier if I could write two characters not getting along and then have them both, y'know, decide they're done with the lip service of apparent conflict and then turn around and get along again. Righto.

At which point I would also hope you hunt me down and shoot me for it. But in the meantime at least I'd have written something under 80K!

[muffiewrites.livejournal.com]

It would probably be a lot easier if I could write two characters not getting along and then have them both, y'know, decide they're done with the lip service of apparent conflict and then turn around and get along again. Righto.

You should just bring Quatre in. He can use his space heart, offer them the use of one of his mansions, and make sure Relena doesn't hunt them down while Duo is gestating Heero's baby. Then everyone will get along, except Relena, who you can just have sent to jail until you need more conflict. :)

Lemme ask this. Okay. I get that publishers want newbies to put out skinny novels first because it's cheaper to bomb in the marketplace with those than the thick ones. However, unless there's a compelling reason for a novel to be 80k, a think there's a very compelling reason for it to be longer if you can make it really good. Stephanie Meyers got published *gaghurlshudder* and a movie deal. L. Ron Hubbard took a novella and turned it into ten books and got them published. In hardback, too. Some people actually even paid for them. And a few weren't scientologists. In need of psychotherapy, but not scientologists. Okay. Getting carried away.

Some stories just need to be long. Some stories are long because the writer writes a lot. If you recognize that the story needs to be shortened for an internal reason, finding it is probably pretty simple, painful, and I think you've already clued yourself into it. At least, that the way it works with me and my writing problems.

If the reason is external to the story, then that requires a different problem-solution set. It means cutting into plot. Or, better if more time consuming, writing a different story to shop out and then selling the more convoluted one when you're more established and have more freedom to write big.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

writing a different story to shop out and then selling the more convoluted one when you're more established and have more freedom to write big.

I've used this argument with myself over and over, and each time, I intend to write "something shorter and easier this time" to use as jump-start... and by halfway through I realize, uhm, not happening. Some of the stories, I think I could cut down a bit by starting later, but this most recent story would fall apart then, since it really is a get-together which means you kinda need to start when the two characters start, well, getting together. Sigh.

I'm giving serious thought to instead of seeing a single book as one-book, trying to find a good place to stop it and seeing the second half as a second book. Maybe that's the only way to get it down to size while still keeping the intricacy I like.

[wombat-kombat.livejournal.com]

I'd love to help you out, largely because I think it would benefit me as well. From what I've read here, I think I have the opposite problem: I tend to do my character development in terse single lines of dialogue. I also tend to develop conflict the same way. It's almost impossible to know what's going on in the minds of my characters because they're too busy spitting dryly sarcastic one-liners at each other. That's my version of 'interpersonal tensions' and if I'm being honest with myself (never an easy task) that's pretty superficial.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

If it'll be helpful, then sure, that might be useful for both of us -- and your comments made my most recent post feel strangely apropos, suddenly. Heh.

[wombat-kombat.livejournal.com]

I read that post, and yeah. You put into words exactly the things I struggle with internally as I'm trying to write.

Problem is, most of the relationships I cultivate are with *banterers*. I love banter. I doing it, watching it, and most of all reading it. I can forgive sucky plot, weak worldbuilding, poor sentence construction... really, just about anything, if there's good banter. So I tend to write like my characters are wit machines, fueled by sarcasm and with faster reaction times than ninja cats.

Which reminds me, where did you put my damn shoes?