protection, possession
19 Sep 2008 01:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kaigouQuestion for everyone, about possession/protection in stories. Your impressions don't have to revolve around or be based solely on romantic sub/plots (RSP for easier typing), but in general, though it's most often overused in RSP.
In case I need to mention it again, interpersonal dynamics are absolute fascination to me, especially when you add in any sort of imbalance of power. Given that, you may get already the gist of what I mean when I bring up characters being possessive or protective: it's most often the more powerful character, the one with little to obviously gain, who feels anywhere from unexpectedly protective (or the shadow-side version, possessive) of another character -- to the RSP style in which it's an almost obsessive and immediate protective/possessive sense.
I can't recall now whether I discussed it here, though CP and I discussed the topic: if, at some point, in everyday real relationships, there's been an overwhelming (or at least just very strong) sense of needing/wanting to 'protect' a loved one. The premise I gave was similar to a hundred RSP situations, where Alpha-half looks over to see lover (or more often, simply potential lover) and wants to leap to the lover's defense. Or, at the extreme, to actually remove the destined/intended lover from the scene altogether to isolate/remove him/her from the danger -- which I must also add isn't always even that articulated, so much as a general flash of intense jealousy.
When I read such scenes, I can't help but see it not just from the POV-character's overweening anxiety/jealousy (which may or may not be understandable given the author's set up), but I also see it from the object's POV, and I always find myself thinking: hey, jerkwad, I'm quite capable. Don't treat me like I'm either so fragile I'll break at a wrong word, or so freaking stupid I don't realize I'm fragile. Cripes.
Because there's actually two versions of this Spontaneous Obsessive-Possessive Attack -- one being the classic Alpha version where the powerful/alpha character just steamrollers on over and yanks the beta/lower away, all sanity and reason apparently just gone in a sudden show of primal hair-pulling and chest-beating. Yes, that can be a make-or-break point for a story, and it does take some authorly skill to get me past a knee-jerk "hey, asshole!" reaction. (For instance, I'm a great deal more forgiving if the obsessive-possessive actions are coming from an older sibling, even though on the surface it's essentially the same behavior.)
The second version is what I guess is the modern adaptation of trying to mesh the classic sstrong/weak opposition in romance (read: romanticized) relationships, with the modern/western awareness or preference that a good relationship can be composed of equals. This isn't gender-based, though, because I've read it in gay fiction written by men for men, and lesbian fiction written by women for women, and in het fiction written by both genders, and the genders of the participants cover all possible permutations: it's when Alpha sees Beta, feels flash of protectiveness, and has to remind him/herself, consciously, that Beta is capable and able to self-defend.
Which was the point I made to CP, that somehow I find this immensely offensive, when I think of the Beta's POV even as I read through the eyes of the Alpha. How could you forget that the beta is perfectly competent? To have to consciously reassure yourself that yes, in fact, the beta can handle the situation, regardless of whether any clear danger is actually present?
When I say it's not gender-based, I mean that I've also read the same in, say, a situation where a socially skilled or powerful woman is watching her lower-class or less-social potential/actual lover hobnob. It's often expressed as a worry, and a need to intervene, but if you ask me it amounts to the same kind of thing.
Maybe I just have trouble believing in the strength of an interrelational dynamic when on some level the author seems to be determined to reinforce the imbalance. I don't know. Anyone else?
In case I need to mention it again, interpersonal dynamics are absolute fascination to me, especially when you add in any sort of imbalance of power. Given that, you may get already the gist of what I mean when I bring up characters being possessive or protective: it's most often the more powerful character, the one with little to obviously gain, who feels anywhere from unexpectedly protective (or the shadow-side version, possessive) of another character -- to the RSP style in which it's an almost obsessive and immediate protective/possessive sense.
I can't recall now whether I discussed it here, though CP and I discussed the topic: if, at some point, in everyday real relationships, there's been an overwhelming (or at least just very strong) sense of needing/wanting to 'protect' a loved one. The premise I gave was similar to a hundred RSP situations, where Alpha-half looks over to see lover (or more often, simply potential lover) and wants to leap to the lover's defense. Or, at the extreme, to actually remove the destined/intended lover from the scene altogether to isolate/remove him/her from the danger -- which I must also add isn't always even that articulated, so much as a general flash of intense jealousy.
When I read such scenes, I can't help but see it not just from the POV-character's overweening anxiety/jealousy (which may or may not be understandable given the author's set up), but I also see it from the object's POV, and I always find myself thinking: hey, jerkwad, I'm quite capable. Don't treat me like I'm either so fragile I'll break at a wrong word, or so freaking stupid I don't realize I'm fragile. Cripes.
Because there's actually two versions of this Spontaneous Obsessive-Possessive Attack -- one being the classic Alpha version where the powerful/alpha character just steamrollers on over and yanks the beta/lower away, all sanity and reason apparently just gone in a sudden show of primal hair-pulling and chest-beating. Yes, that can be a make-or-break point for a story, and it does take some authorly skill to get me past a knee-jerk "hey, asshole!" reaction. (For instance, I'm a great deal more forgiving if the obsessive-possessive actions are coming from an older sibling, even though on the surface it's essentially the same behavior.)
The second version is what I guess is the modern adaptation of trying to mesh the classic sstrong/weak opposition in romance (read: romanticized) relationships, with the modern/western awareness or preference that a good relationship can be composed of equals. This isn't gender-based, though, because I've read it in gay fiction written by men for men, and lesbian fiction written by women for women, and in het fiction written by both genders, and the genders of the participants cover all possible permutations: it's when Alpha sees Beta, feels flash of protectiveness, and has to remind him/herself, consciously, that Beta is capable and able to self-defend.
Which was the point I made to CP, that somehow I find this immensely offensive, when I think of the Beta's POV even as I read through the eyes of the Alpha. How could you forget that the beta is perfectly competent? To have to consciously reassure yourself that yes, in fact, the beta can handle the situation, regardless of whether any clear danger is actually present?
When I say it's not gender-based, I mean that I've also read the same in, say, a situation where a socially skilled or powerful woman is watching her lower-class or less-social potential/actual lover hobnob. It's often expressed as a worry, and a need to intervene, but if you ask me it amounts to the same kind of thing.
Maybe I just have trouble believing in the strength of an interrelational dynamic when on some level the author seems to be determined to reinforce the imbalance. I don't know. Anyone else?
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no subject
Date: 20 Sep 2008 04:03 am (UTC)I've had to retype it, like 6 times. This situation is a fav theme, but I need certain aspects in place, to enjoy it; Shown respect by the Alpha character, words of affirmation by the Alpha character, affection without sex by the Alpha, courting by the Alpha, open pursuit by the Alpha, playfulness by the Alpha, a shift in power, when the Beta needs it, without question, by the Alpha.
If all that is there, then I can roll with it. If not, things get ookie in my head.
I have no issue, if those things are there, for an Alpha to step in, even if the Beta is dealing and just making something stop or removing them from the situation. Due to my past and having had someone do that for me, despite it being a rather abusive association (much of what I mentioned, was not there), the fact he did it, was... it made me feel secure, for the first time in my life. I didn't have to deal. Someone else would take care of it. I could just walk away. I wasn't alone anymore. His response, to someone or thing making me nervous or angry or uncomfortable, was fast and without comment. He'd notice, when my best friends would not. I never had to explain or ask him to do anything. He'd just click on and handle it, then go back to what he was doing, as if it hadn't happened. To me, it was like he was saying, "If they want to fuck with you, they have to go through me first." That sort of thing, is very alluring.
no subject
Date: 20 Sep 2008 04:56 pm (UTC)I have actually read perhaps one or two stories where a difficult past is twigged on by the alpha/more-alpha character, who knows enough and/or is perceptive enough to drop into the required role, such as you mentioned. But if someone doesn't have that history, such behavior can potentially be seen as usurping the person's right to determine where, and when, that line of "no more of this situation" really stands. (oh, that was mangled.)
I think what's most interesting is that you mention 'playfulness by the Alpha' -- which I'd say also comes from a certain security for themselves. My friend the ultra-Alpha was not, genuinely, that playful the first few years I knew him -- he could tease, and joke around, but he was rarely playful... then he remarried and this time to someone who holds her own and with whom he's very much in love and sometimes it's almost mind-boggling how playful he can be.
He still displays all the other ultra-Alpha symptoms that drive me up the wall, but will also show plenty of playfulness as well, even goofiness. What I really like is that now he still offers backup (to his first wife: "they're bothering you, I'll say something") but it's offered, not insisted -- "want me to say something?" To which his current wife, I've watched/learned, thinks it over and says, "no, I'll deal with it," or "yes, if you don't mind," and either way, she then gives him a smile or some other affection to let him know his alpha-flareup was appreciated.
I think it's actually the cutest thing. Alpha-male, if not tamed and domesticated, at least trained (finally) to be housebroken! Wah!
no subject
Date: 20 Sep 2008 05:24 pm (UTC)Yes, playful is important. Very much so. It signals a lot about the relationship.