kaigou: this is what I do, darling (don't matter don't mind)
[personal profile] kaigou
Somedays it just doesn’t pay to actually USE the freaking braincells, or it does pay, as long as I’m willing to put up with the side effects of having to deal with skeptical responses from people who can’t seem to understand how much joy can be found in THINKING ABOUT STUFF. Because you know it just gives my life extra meaning to explore all the ramifications and connotations of a storyline, characterization, motivation, conflict and possible resolution only to have someone say, “why worry about it, just enjoy the story and see what happens.”

Ahem. When I enjoy a story, it’s because I am thinking (not “worrying”, just thinking) about it. When I stop thinking about a story, I stop enjoying it. If I close the book mid-chapter and I don’t spend the next hour saying, “hunh, I wonder what’ll happen, and I wonder if she’ll call him on that, or if they’ll get away from the tidal wave, or if they’ll lose the game,” then the book or movie or series may be a good one but it’s a failure for me personally -- because it’s a storyline I’ll never revisit. I’ll probably end up rewatching Seirei no Moribito and Ookiku Furikabutte and Ergo Proxy just as I’ve rewatched Buffy the Vampire Slayer (but only specific seasons), but I don’t expect to be rewatching Macross Frontier or Eureka Seven or Saiyuki or even Rurouni Kenshin. (Though the jury is still kinda out on Eureka Seven.) I mean, yes, I enjoyed Inuyasha a great deal but not once was a cliffhanger even remotely hanging for me.

Oh, how do I long for the days of ATPoBtVS, sometimes!

I shall now snark, because it’s my goddamn journal and I freaking can. Annoying* comments will be ridiculed and deleted, because I can do that too; here, “annoying” is defined as “anything seriously repeating arguments of the same ilk as I’m about to ridicule right now.” Here, have an analogy that I’m sure a lot of you will probably get more than if I restate any mecha-based analyses...

Me: Whedon seems to be using vampires as a metaphor for overgrown teenagers. So far, Whedon has shown us vampires like A, B, and C. Wonder what this means for the intentions of Big Bad A and Good Guy B?

Reply #1: Here’s a quote from Whedon, last year, talking about how in this season, he’ll be using vampires as a metaphor for overgrown teenagers!

Me: Gee, why didn’t I think of that? I could’ve just read the interview and said, “oh, well THAT settles it, I clearly don’t need to THINK because the AUTHOR has done it FOR me.”

Reply #2: You should really stop worrying about all this and just enjoy finding out what happens as it happens.

Me: I appreciate your concern for my blood pressure, but I assure you, my blood pressure is just fine, and the only time it actually spikes is when I’m struggling to find a polite response for those folks who confuse the anxiety of “worry” with the mechanism of “observer-story interaction”.

Reply #3: Why are you wasting all this time talking about vampires, it’s a show about vampires, deal with it.

Me: Yes, it was a post of a thousand words of which maybe a quarter were about vampires and the rest was about what the metaphor means in terms of characterization. Or maybe you missed that part.

Reply #4: This is really stupid. You’re so hung up on these stupid details. You’re like those annoying Anne Rice fans who argue for hours over the exact kinds of curtains Louis had or whether Lestat’s favorite coat was blue or green.

Me: I have this strange suspicion it’d go right over your head if I quip that the author is in the details.

Date: 1 Feb 2008 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cinnamonical.livejournal.com
I could never write an essay about musing about the details - that's simply not the way my brain is wired. But fanfiction? Oh, yes, the details are in the fanfiction. That's where I extrapolate and explain. :D

I do which I had more of an essaying inclination, though. Mostly 'cause you write such cool ones. :D

Date: 1 Feb 2008 10:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
Fanfiction is really just another way of absorbing, analyzing, and expressing one's comprehension of the details. You can find just as much in good fanfiction that makes you stop and say, "y'know, I never even thought of it that way," that you can in any essay. Some of the greatest insights I've had into characterization and motivation come from fanfiction authors willing to explore those elements, and instead of telling (a la an essay), they prefer to show.

Both essay and fiction have the power to make someone finish with the reaction of, "wow, yeah, it's exactly like that, why didn't I see that before?"

Date: 1 Feb 2008 11:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] silmaril.livejournal.com
I would like to think that if the author of story/show put any kind of detail there, it is because s/he would actually like you to think about it, notice those details, go "a-ha!", link things together and understand what's beyond the words and the costuming.

What is the point of having the potential to nit-pick in loving detail if you do not use the potential? It only wastes some of the joy to be derived.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 02:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
I definitely agree, and I suspect that every time two Trekkies get together and fuss over whether the backup engines had three hundred cubic liters or four hundred, somewhere a Trek writer is sneezing happily.

(Although when I'm not getting called Delilah in this house, a certain someone likes to make snarky comments about, "hey, maybe if you get lucky some pilot will call you up and ask you just how DID they make that 12-G turn in episode 6?" a la Galaxy Quest... sheesh.)

The best part of details (or one of hte better parts) is when you can catch continuity errors. I have total respect for anyone who can catch them on the first watch, though, since it usually takes the second time around before I go, "hey, wait a minute..." !

Date: 1 Feb 2008 11:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] leorising1959.livejournal.com
My dear friend [livejournal.com profile] darkpoole is a deeply fanatic Buffy fan, and he is also quite discriminating in his tastes. He swears by The Chosen, a BtVS "fanfic" that he swears is freaking fantastic. In fact, he has been joining his fellow fans at TWOP in reviewing each "episode" on his LJ. For some reason I've been resisting reading it, but I know I'm going to jump on the bandwagon sooner or later.

Here's the link, if you're interested: http://www.btvschosen.com/

ETA: And yes, I always find contemplating the details is the most delicious part of any "entertainment." Why put them there at all, if not for the reader/viewer/whatever to notice?

It's the little details that add depth and texture. I wouldn't seek out books or movies or plays or even comic books if I was told I "couldn't think about it."

^_^


Date: 2 Feb 2008 02:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
I actually never got into Buffy fanfic (though I was co-editor of a major group piece, a few years back). There just didn't seem to be as much it could tell me, not when I had the weekly discussions on ATPoBtVS to carry me along. But thanks for the rec, if I ever get a hankering at least I know where to start. ;-)

Date: 2 Feb 2008 01:22 am (UTC)
ext_27003: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sans-pertinence.livejournal.com
Analysis... is not my chocolate cake. Which does not mean that I can't appreciate the fact (or understand why) other people consider it theirs. I don't have the type of personality to enjoy in-depth dissection: I'm too impatient, too abrupt, too much of a lot of things I'd probably be a much better person if I could shake. Once in a while I enjoy reading someone else's breakdown/insights, but only if the subject is one that fascinates me. Put me in a room with another student of ancient Egypt -- most especially those steeped in the 17-20th dynasties -- and I'll waffle happily on forever and a day about minutiae that would bore the hell out of any layman with the misfortune to happen by.

So I suppose you might say specific analysis is my chocolate cake. I must admit, however, that after being in a room with a bunch of fellow Egyptological freaks arguing as to whether the animal is the god, as opposed to said god being an animal head on a human body -- and whether or not the animal/human mix perhaps means the priest/priestess representing the god(animal) -- even a fanatic reaches the point where a Sig Sauer and a lot of bullets sound very... clean.

Fiction or otherwise, the author is in the details -- details which cushion the reader and provide the necessary backdrop for them to enjoy the rest of the story without being jarred out of its landscape. And yet, for most people background is all they will ever be: the not-quite-recalled (though most certainly required) furnishings of a home they visited, thought was rather nice, then left after a few hours and promptly forgot any specifics, remembering only that they "liked it". I suspect that quite often it's only another writer who will notice the details for what they are and appreciate them thusly.

But what do I know? I don't care enough about anything to be more than vaguely amused (or occasionally vexed) by any of it. I believe nothing is serious business, whether it's fiction, history, or life. But it is fun to poke any and all of the above with a stick once in while, just to watch things wriggle.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
Once in a while I enjoy reading someone else's breakdown/insights, but only if the subject is one that fascinates me.

I think this is true for everyone, but the difference is that if you aren't interested in a topic of analysis, then a mature person just says, "hey, if you need me, I'll be at the bar." There's no need to tell the person/people in happy contemplation that their time is wasted because, y'know, they're worrying too much. Or some equally stupid shit.

I think everyone has a very specific sense of analysis -- what's valuable, and what's not. I know I dislike analysis in a vacuum; I get bored stiff almost instantaneously if I'm around the pure-science trek-geeks who really do only care about whether the engine's this size or that size, or whether so-and-so wore such-and-such in season five or season eighty. I'm the one in the corner saying, "yes, but what does this mean for the story?"

Someone who spends as much time as I do, for instance analyzing the details of mecha height/weight variances -- but then doesn't go the final step to draw a bead on what this says about characterization or motivation... is someone I'll avoid in the future. I can bloody well find and extract data on my own just fine, thanks; what I seek is someone who can give me their interpretation against which I can compare my own.

I suspect that quite often it's only another writer who will notice the details for what they are and appreciate them thusly.

Or may be the first to note and discount: I think of chefs who don't really care to dissect another's work, out of some kind of discomfort over someone doing it to them. Yet there are gourmands who can burn water, but have no hesitation spending a half-hour over a single dish, savoring every bite and discussing all the flavors. (Which just ties into my belief that you don't have to cook to know the pie is burnt, anymore than that you have to Be A Writer to know the story is broke.)

Date: 2 Feb 2008 02:51 am (UTC)
ext_27003: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sans-pertinence.livejournal.com
If you aren't interested in a topic of analysis, then a mature person just says, "hey, if you need me, I'll be at the bar." There's no need to tell the person/people in happy contemplation that their time is wasted because, y'know, they're worrying too much.

Do people do that so often? In my experience they usually just nod off, and then everybody else takes turns throwing wadded up pieces of paper at their gaping mouths until they wake up. *grin* But seriously, yes it is annoying, and yes one would like to strangle them. Thank god you're less likely to run into such an individual in a group of Con people who get together for the purpose of enjoying each other's company and conversation than you would on, say, an LJ comm.


Which just ties into my belief that you don't have to cook to know the pie is burnt, anymore than that you have to Be A Writer to know the story is broke.

You don't have to, no, but if you don't know that an oil crust typically dies in an oven heated to over 425°, or that baking soda and baking powder were not created equal, then all you can really say is: the cook fucked up. You don't know why, no matter how good you are at dissecting the flavors. And a reader will put the book down and not pick it up again, whilst thinking, "Not my cuppa."

Date: 2 Feb 2008 10:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
*waves hand*

I've done it. CP does it to me. Other friends have done it. It's not something anyone (mature, at least) ever gets upset about. It's just a straightforward, honest truth that: this is your interest, and I'll come back around when you move to a topic for which I have something to contribute.

It's far less annoying to just be honest when you're not interested, than to sit there resenting -- not to mention it saves friends from feeling like they need to explain it to you (out of that common friendly-discomfort when someone's sitting there looking totally bored), especially when you know already you're not interested. Or worse, it's something you genuinely don't like, but does it really help anyone to put friends on the defensive about it? Naw.

if you don't know that an oil crust typically dies in an oven heated to over 425°, or that baking soda and baking powder were not created equal

This is true, but you can still learn the basic procedures even if you're stuck burning water. I can tell you a whole lotta trivia about chefly things (thanks to putting one through culinary school, bwah) but I'm still limited to yeast breads and the most basic of vegetable dishes.

...And sometimes, you can tell a lot just from the flavors, the visuals, the textures, a lot more than most folks give their instincts credit for.

Back to reading/writing: I think a lot of people do have the ability to dissect, at least in general terms, what's "burnt" about a story, but it's the intimidation factor of not being able to reproduce it themselves that keeps their mouths shut. I don't get that; I think once people start talking about what their impressions, they start to realize there are analyses buried in there, they just didn't stop to bring it to the surface. A good writer can listen to those, and parse out in writerly/chefly terms what it means in terms of the technicals.

Sometimes those folks just need someone to get the conversation going, is all. ;-)

Date: 2 Feb 2008 10:33 am (UTC)
ext_27003: (Default)
From: [identity profile] sans-pertinence.livejournal.com
I didn't mean, do they go off to the bar (yep, done it), I meant, do they really sit there and basically tell you to shut up? *__* Because that's what saying, "Oh, stop worrying about it so much," amounts to in this case.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 10:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
They head to the bar.

Unless it's CP, in which case he heads back to his study to watch porn download another crazy-ass dorama do homework.



(Only once has someone said in my presence, "if you're going to talk about this, I'm leaving..." and then not left. To which I therefore automatically had to reply, "well, if you're going, GO.")

Date: 2 Feb 2008 01:56 am (UTC)
ext_15252: (Default)
From: [identity profile] masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com
You know, I used to get emails like those comments people are making to you.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
Heh, I figured as much!

Date: 2 Feb 2008 02:54 am (UTC)
ext_15252: (Default)
From: [identity profile] masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com
And my response was usually a sullen, "You make your own fun, I'll make mine!"

Date: 2 Feb 2008 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luna-the-cat.livejournal.com
Hi -- you don't know me, but I just added you as a friend. I write (mostly badly) and you put up a tremendous amount of good, gritty detail which I can and should learn from.

And FWIW, although I can *sometimes* turn my brain off enough to simply enjoy a story, I can't always or for everything. My other passion is science, and no matter how well I like the characters or the plot, when the basics of how the universe works are wrong in fundamental ways that just aren't excused by the conscious level to which the story requires suspension-of-disbelief...it. makes. me. nuts.

It's not just about physics. With me, it's more biology and/or genetics...please don't get me started on alien improbable cross-breeds. I just wonder if what I've got going is the analog of your frustration at (reading back over some of your older posts) seeing street kids incredibly badly characterised, for example.

Also fwiw, I'm totally with you on the "...when I’m struggling to find a polite response for those folks who confuse the anxiety of “worry” with the mechanism of “observer-story interaction” bit. My husband does not understand this, and thus, it is very difficult for me to discuss movies or books with him sometimes. Argh.

Right, that's my sticking my nose in, anyway. Thank you for writing these things. I'll probably be quiet now.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 10:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
I just wonder if what I've got going is the analog of your frustration at (reading back over some of your older posts) seeing street kids incredibly badly characterised, for example.

Oh, definitely. I get the same way when it comes to physics, or mishmashed scientific terms. Anything else, the instant I sniff something that doesn't sound right, I head off to research about it, just to find out. (Sometimes it turns out the author is right, no matter how far-fetched it may seem at first blush to me, and that rightness tends to make me very happy.)

No need to be quiet. More the merrier, around here. ;-)

Date: 2 Feb 2008 03:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] luna-the-cat.livejournal.com
Thank you.

Going away in a fury to look something up is a great way to learn more about things, though, isn't it? I wish most people had that kind of demand for accuracy.

Speaking of which, ever read Kim Harrison's Dead Witch Walking? Not only was the characterisation some of the most internally inconsistent that I have seen in an otherwise promising book, when I hit the "mink are rodents" bits I ended up throwing the book across the room. I don't usually treat books that way.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 03:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chibicharibdys.livejournal.com
Agreed.

Your analysis of Gundam 00 is the only thing keeping me watching it, because without your thinking making me think about the show (and making me think the creators are actually THINKING about what they're doing with the show) I would be metaphorically throwing it across the room. XD

...hm, so much thinking. I have lost entire sentences in the deluge of that one word.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 10:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
Hahahaha, what you don't realize is that if I didn't analyze th series I WOULD NOT HAVE WATCHED PAST EPISODE NINE. Bloody fricking hell, the entire "omg we're tactical geniuses but we're confusing each other with a second grade PINCER MOVE oh noes!!!" had me ready to punch something.

The series is a bizarre mix of wow, that's cool... and the other half is just plain get that freaking MERCHANDISE out of my FACE and MOVE the damn PLOT along PEOPLE.

Sigh.

Date: 2 Feb 2008 06:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chibicharibdys.livejournal.com
Yeah... in the first episode, when the cocky pilot pulls the giant vibro-knife and the noise makes everyone in the audience cover their ears - that was cool, and an awesome detail.

I keep thinking, surely it would be more cost-effective to get sane pilots. But I guess sane people can't be as pretty or marketable? Argh.

Also, the Gundams are too skinny for me. I like my Gundams with some metal on their bones, dammit.

Date: 3 Feb 2008 05:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ramenkuri.livejournal.com
I've never really understood people who like entertainment that doesn't force them to think.

Date: 4 Feb 2008 04:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
I don't mind the eyecandy every now and then, but sometimes you need a bit of roughage in your mental diet. I guess those other folks are the same people who insist on no crusts, and don't like vegetables.

Eh, well, I'd say that leaves more in the world for me, but the problem is the analogy fails there: they don't produce movies or series or publish books for an audience of five. Damn it!

Date: 4 Feb 2008 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ramenkuri.livejournal.com
Yeah, my comment was a little stronger than I intended. It would be more accurate to say I don't understand why people don't like entertainment that makes them think, but everyone has their own amusements.

At least there's a decent amount of stuff that manages to suit the five in addition to others.

Date: 3 Feb 2008 08:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sakushablue.livejournal.com
Hmm. I think there are so many ways to appreciete something. I usually dont analyze so much when Im reading. Thats just me. But I do when Im watching something. Guess Im weird like that. I understand that some people like to do that, and I enjoy reading your analisis on things. I like seeing another point of view and I enjoy that you make me think about something I hadnt before.

Date: 4 Feb 2008 04:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
I don't actually analyze at all when reading or viewing. In that moment, I'm totally caught up and going along, to the point that often in particularly good stories, when a character says, "Oh, I see..." and trails off, I'm left going, "you see what? what?"

It's possible I'm also one of the few people who not only doesn't figure out the murderer ahead of time, but doesn't even try. (I get a lot of grief sometimes if I admit, "hey, maybe you had it figured out, but I never saw that coming," and everyone stares at me like I have two heads for admitting that.)

It's when I stop reading or watching that I start thinking, giving it serious thought. The first go-round of thinking is: do I want to see more? am I really on edge to find out what happens next? ... regardless of the answer, the next question is "why do I have that reaction?" -- y'know, what worked? what didn't work? where did I lose interest? what does that tell me about a good story versus a bad one? and so on.

Which means that if you and I were ever to watch a movie together, I'd probably be the person shushing you if you wanted to talk about it right then... err, when I'm not tapping you on the shoulder and asking, "what? what does he see? I don't get it."

(If I'm not tapping you on the shoulder and asking you to repeat what the character said in the first place... sometimes movies are so loud these days, in theaters, that the louder parts deaden my ears to where I can barely make out the soft parts. Sigh.)

Date: 4 Feb 2008 07:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sakushablue.livejournal.com
Im pretty good at the movie theater (scouts honor!)But if you were sitting on the couch with me then yes, you'd more than likely have to smack me in the back of the head and say 'just enjoy it stupid!' lol. I cant help it. Things like 'Tin Man' I just have to take apart (why the hell did she do THAT?) and think about it while its happening (whats with the magic flying monkey breasts?). Or, dare I say Zooeys acting(or non-acting)skills. Gah! See that I mean? There I go picking at it.

With reading its different for whatever reason. I'll let the author get away with much more. I dont take it apart to much, or dwell on it(to much). Part of it is that if I do that and I get emotional about it (which I tend to do) I dont enjoy it as much. If something really gets under my skin I actually lose sleep over it. Isnt that silly? I dont want to much of an emotional involvement because its not fun for me anymore. Thats not to say I dont love a very involved story. One thing I really love to do is read. But I dont want it to be 'not fun'. Do you find yourself getting carried away?

Another reason I dont get terribly in depth on that analytical level, is that I dont want MY stuff analyzed. Poor grammar and sad spelling aside, I know what Im capable of. Fuzzy silly drabbles seem to be my lot. A side of angst. A touch of romance. But I know I will never be capable of that deeply layered writing you see from TB for example. Or anything longer than 1500 words at a time.*is annoyed with self* And so I find much forgiveness in other authors for something that is beyond me to put into words. Not that Im incapable of those the thought process mind you, I just cant seem to get my words around what I mean to say. And then theres the fact that writing is terribly personal.I would feel too much like I'm analyzing the person behind the words. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

Date: 22 Feb 2008 07:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fairjennet.livejournal.com
Hi. I just friended you. Hope you don't mind, but I really couldn't resist the snark.

Date: 22 Feb 2008 07:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kaigou.livejournal.com
That works out then, because I can't resist any chance to snark.

whois

kaigou: this is what I do, darling (Default)
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"When you make the finding yourself— even if you're the last person on Earth to see the light— you'll never forget it." —Carl Sagan

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