you, in the corner, SIT BACK DOWN.

[kaigou]

I've heard this comment before, even from a few women I've known personally, and it always puts me in the strange spot of not sure whether to laugh hysterically, smack the person, or just grab the woman's purse, snatch her wallet, tear up her driver's license, any credit cards in her own name, and her voter registration card. I'm sure you've heard the comment, at some point in your life:

I hate feminists.

Maybe we're a little unclear on the concept, people. To say, as a woman, in an industrialized society, that you hate feminists is sort of like... oh, I don't know. I can't even think of an analogy asinine enough to match it, let alone with the additional hypocrisy when spoken by a woman. Three words, and you, too, can reveal yourself as an mindless twit! Come on everyone, it's easy!

Get a grip and learn a little, because those words just demonstrate your ignorance. I say ignorance, because the popular notion bandied about at times, as implied by the explanations given by the same women speaking, usually carries a certain presumption of behaviors/values. They're all wrong, dead wrong; feminism is not a mono-culture. Feminism does not automatically mean MAN-HATING. It does not automatically mean ATHEIST. It is not equivalent to LESBIAN. It does not necessarily mean PRO-ABORTION. And no, it does not even require a belief that ALL PORN IS EVUUL.

The one element that drives all mainstream feminism, really, is simply: women are equal to men. So you know what that means, class? Men can be feminists, too. I've had the good fortune to know that every single lover I've ever had is a feminist, because every single one of them looked at me, at all women, and saw an equal.

But that's okay! You can still hate feminists, but here's what I expect you to do:

1. Throw away your credit cards. Ditch the bank account. Feminists got you that right to own property and carry debts, in your own name. You hate feminism? Lose this privilege. Do your part to show just HOW MUCH you hate feminists.

2. Burn the diploma, or just as well, drop out of school. You don't need no stinkin' mathematics class, and forget about the physics, the engineering, the medical degree, linguistics, communications. If you really hate feminists, you wouldn't want a job in those traditionally male arenas, anyway.

3. If you absolutely must work, be happy with being a nurse or a grade school teacher (but never the doctor or the principal), or you could do laundry or retail. Oh, and jump for joy when you're paid .45 cents on the dollar compared to your lesser-qualified male coworkers. Because, hey, you HATE feminists. So you certainly don't want to benefit from feminism's hard work, do you?

And finally, most importantly:

4. DON'T VOTE.

Don't vote in national elections, local elections, school elections or even at your local neighborhood association. Feminists got you those rights. Feminists were slandered, shunned, jailed, fined, beaten, and slammed to the sidewalk with firehoses to get YOU the right to vote. But you can't stand feminists, so to hell with their sacrifices!

So naturally, this means you're going to HAPPILY shut the fuck up when it comes to what someone's doing in the White House, or even in your local town. Because, hey, feminists say WE ARE EQUAL and you don't like that, right? Oh, no, you'd never want to be associated with a woman who'd stand up and shake her fist at the world and say, I WILL NOT BE DISCOUNTED. I WILL NOT BE IGNORED. No, you're not like that.

And it's a damn good thing you're in the minority, you spineless bitch, because if you weren't, I and all the brilliant women I know would be without a voice to vote, without privacy to control our own bodies, without means to get skills or the jobs to employ them. We'd be disenfranchised and spend our days hoping for handouts from our husbands, or our parents. We'd be risk being thrown out if our husbands died, because that business or that house isn't in our name, so we've lost all rights if our husband didn't leave a will specifically ALLOWING us to live or use those resources. We'd be twiddling our thumbs in our parents' houses, killing time until some bozo comes along and makes a woman of us.

Well, fuck that, and fuck you.

I have no problem if you say you can't stand feminists. That's your call. I think you're an utter moron, and a disgrace not only to your gender but to the history of this nation. And that's my call. But if you're going to proudly proclaim that you dislike anyone, across the board, who simply believes that WOMEN AND MEN ARE EQUAL, then maybe you need to step back and recognize that you're living on the fat of the land, a land tilled and sowed by a shitload of women who came before you, who fought and argued and marched and petitioned and starved and wrote and organized, all to get you a bunch of rights that you now freely use with one hand while flipping all your predecessors off with the other hand.

So.

In twenty-two days as of this post, this country will pass its eighty-five anniversary of the signing of the Nineteenth Amendment.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

In the 1770's, men could vote only if they owned property and were white (and in some states if they were a certain religion). It took sixty years for the property and religion restrictions to be abolished. It took another thirty years for non-white males to get to vote; in 1870, the Fifteenth Amendment struck all restrictions on the basis of race, color, or previous servitude/slavery. And another fifty years passed before the 19th Amendment was ratified, and women could finally vote.

Eighty-five years and counting.

And a lot of the final stretch came from the western states, the territories, lands filled by women who slogged across this country alongside the men. The same women who had no legal holding on their claim if their husband died en route, or if their husband died before the settlement time period (usually five years) was up. Those women had guts. No surprise they soon led the front wave of the fight, to have the same legal recognition as the men around them. Those female settlers worked just as hard as the men, AND they raised families at the same time.

If that's not equal, maybe we've got different definitions of the word, because that sure reads to me like women who'd proved that they could put in the work of any man, and deserved the pay and the recognition and the legal rights, damn it. It was a dangerous, risky thing, to emigrate into the territories, and only more so if you weren't recognized in the eyes of the law except as someone else's dependent.

But if you hate feminism, don't want/like being equal, then this is the question that pops into my head at your words:

Is that what you are: someone else's child? Someone's wife? Is that all you are? Do you honestly believe that someone who says A MAN AND A WOMAN ARE EQUAL is wrong?

Fine. So be it. But don't let me see you trying to buy a car, or a house, or even co-signing on either of the above. Don't waste time on learning anything that isn't directly related to cooking, cleaning, or raising children, because you're not good for anything else, so don't bother. And don't let me hear you even breathe a word of politics, because as a dependent you've got no place excercising that right -- and if you're giving up the right, you sure as hell don't get to complain about what the rest of us do with what you've walked away from.

And while you're at it, don't forget to get down on your knees and praise the male politicians who invade your privacy, tell you what you can do with your body, your education, your career, your children, your house, your marriage, your mind and your soul, because hey, if you're not equal, and you're just a dependent, go be HAPPY that someone is going to treat you like a child.

You can have it. I'm a feminist. I'll be over here with all the other feminists, who believe that we've made a lot of progress but we're not there yet, but it's worth it to keep fighting. On August 26th, I'll be raising a toast to my mother, my grandmothers, my aunts, my cousins, my great-grandmothers, all the women in my family and this nation who sweated and fought and marched and petitioned and made themselves into holy terrors so that some day, their daughters could vote, could own property, could be educated, could make a livable salary...

They did it so they, and the women to come, could hold their heads high and say: I WILL NOT BE DISCOUNTED, AND I WILL NOT BE IGNORED. I AM YOUR EQUAL.

So, back to you feminist-haters. If you want to get back into a shoebox where women are possessions, fine. Move to Saudi Arabia, and get the fuck out of my country. That, like a few other countries I can think of, is one place where your antiquated notions would be fully embraced, and they're welcome to you.

Eh, but never let it be said I'm a total bastard for ranting like this.

To demonstrate my magnanimity, I'll even help you pack.

Comments

[aishuu.livejournal.com]

...how about this? I dislike militant feminists.

Then again, I dislike anyone who takes a militant attitude towards their cause.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

You want to know the crazy thing? When talking with other moderate feminists, there've been a few times we've all rolled our eyes and gone, "but the radical feminists... they're just off the deep end." We know the common ground between us and them, but we can also see the differences.

Compare that to the women who've said, in my hearing, "I hate feminism." My usual response is, "yeah, the militant ones bug me, too." --- and every time, the response has been, "no, I mean all feminists."

The lower the ignorance level, the more likely that any expression of dislike/hate is going to be qualified to some degree.

[sharm.livejournal.com]

That's odd. I like to use the term Feminatzi's. Because then everyone understands what I mean and the only thing I ever hear to the negitive is that they don't like the term. *shrugs*

I should start using militant feminists instead, and eductate the idiots who don't know the diference.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Well, the term 'feminazi' is, no doubt about it, a highly negative term. But 'militant' can be positive, if the power's used for good. And there are some instances when being militant is important, and does make a difference, so it's a bit more neutral. It just indicates a strong leaning towards a certain position -- and it's an ambiguous term, too. One can be militant about women in the workplace, or militant about abortion rights, or militant about sexual assault, I suppose.

I suppose the difference is that 'feminazi' makes both the mission *and* the person sound like a negative, evil thing, and in most cases, it's neither. It's just that the person is so much more militant about a subject than the audience, but this doesn't mean the person's goal is necessarily evil, and certainly (hopefully) not as evil as the original Nazis.

In some ways, calling someone a feminazi for being gung-ho on A, B, or C not only insults the person who (most likely) is simply fanatical and devoted to their pet cause -- it also trivializes those who did suffer under the Nazis.

[sharm.livejournal.com]

I never thought about it that way. I never intend to insult anyone as a person when I disagree with their ideals, nor do I want to trivialize any of what happened during that terrible time in our history. I won't be using it again.

[ginmar]

The term 'feminazi' was coined by none other than Rush Limbaugh. Anybody who uses it is endorsing that way of thinking about feminists.

Some of us do have parents who actually fought the Nazis. Anybody who uses that term needs to STFU.

[ravensilver.livejournal.com]

Ouch... What got you going on this?

Not that I don't agree with you... seeing as my mother, too, was one of those fighting for what I enjoy today as a free woman.

My only problem with... feminists... is with the absolutely rabid, extremist ones. The ones that believe that the only good male is a dead one. I don't get along too well with those.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

See my comment to Aishuu. You are case in point, obviously! ;D

[ginmar]

"The ones that believe that the only good male is a dead one."

Oh, I like this game. Which ones would those be?

I can hardly wait till somebody brings up Andrea Dworkin or Valerie Solanas.

[okaasan59.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the concept needs clearing up. And maybe it's a thing that's more pervasive in the conservative South.

I've heard the same thing, mostly from older women who may feel a bit intimidated by the whole movement, and younger women who choose to stay home to raise their children. Some of the younger women have gotten the idea that feminists believe that unless you are a "career woman" you are somehow less worthy. It's an attitude that quite a few stay-at-home moms have to battle, with ourselves as much as with others. While I don't agree with this assessment of feminism, I've had to battle at least one self-proclaimed "feminist" who insisted that I was doing my children a disfavor by raising them myself. These people miss the point that the goal of the feminist movement was to allow women the choice.

When Shannon went to school to register for her senior year there was a table where 17-year-olds could sign up to vote. Her eyes lit up. She's been chomping at the bit. Now she just has to wait until she actually turns 18...

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

The stay-at-home versus career-worker has been a long-standing debate in the feminist movement, right alongside the question of whether you're buying into the dominant paradigm by dressing in a revealing manner, or whether you're expressing your own sexuality as its owner. And it also slams both: I've gotten the "you're not a real woman until you're married/have kids" and I've had friends who've gotten the "you're not a real contributing member of society unless you have a career". And the thing is, so few of us are truly at an extreme. Many of us who work do have home lives, and many of us who don't have an outside salary still have outside lives -- I'd put your volunteerism, and your work with your church, and various orgs, squarely in the category of an Outside Life. I mean, it's not like you never get to leave home except to do grocery shopping.

These people miss the point that the goal of the feminist movement was to allow women the choice.

Which is why I get most frustrated at women who slide all 'feminists' into the category of 'women who are bad' or somehow 'destructive'. It's not WHAT choice is made; it's that a choice is POSSIBLE.

In some ways, the debate reminds me of several studies I read a few years back about the pro/anti abortion debate. In a major survey, the pro-choice women, for the most part, expressed no discomfort with the idea of other women refusing to get abortions. It was the anti-abortion women, most specifically those who classed 'pro-abortion' as 'anti-family', who considered a pro-choice position as being a direct threat on their way of life. Consider traditionally-minded women found the negation of tradition to be more of a threat than progressive women did in return; the studies drew a few tentative conclusions that this might be because most of the women interviewed (in the 80s, I think it was) had been raised with a traditional perspective but the progressives had moved away from that, but were familiar with the traditional. In contrast, the traditionals found the progressive attitude unfamiliar, and therefore threatening.

Most of those I'd read while working with an organization that did conflict resolution, and one of the directors did a series of outreach programs designed to bring anti/pro forces together to find common ground. I think it was for a neighborhood where a Planned Parenthood chapter was supposed to open. The org's director and her project partner did a write-up, and told me at one point the weekend was as hard as any war-zone negotiation they'd ever done, but in some ways had a great deal more hope of resolution. It all depended on differentiating between someone else's choice, and one's own, and seeing them as mutually acceptable but not intrusive.

Gyah. Dhed. Rants take a lot out of me...

[achiasa.livejournal.com]

In a major survey, the pro-choice women, for the most part, expressed no discomfort with the idea of other women refusing to get abortions. It was the anti-abortion women, most specifically those who classed 'pro-abortion' as 'anti-family', who considered a pro-choice position as being a direct threat on their way of life.

A lot of people don't recognise or realise that there is a difference between pro-choice and pro-abortion. A lot of anti-abortionists see the pro-choice movement as their opposite and enemy, and so subconsciously the decision is made that pro-choice means pro-abortion. The pro-choice movement really needs to get out there and put the message out that no, we don't want to force anyone to have abortions, we don't want to tell anyone what to think. We just want everyone to choose for themselves, and to have the right to choose for themselves.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

This is why I have an issue with the label of pro-abortion, as much as I have an issue with the label of pro-choice, oddly. I prefer to think of it as pro-privacy. It's not an issue of what choice I WOULD make, or that I even see there as being a choice -- after all, having made up my mind where I stand, this determines whether or not I take path A or path B upon discovering a pregnancy -- it's that it's MY BUSINESS and no one else's.

So I prefer to tell people that I'm pro-privacy, and I want the government (and my neighbors) out of all things that are private: what I do with my body, my lovers, and my spirituality. Yes, I have a choice, but it's a great deal easier to do the whole "live and let live" thing when you start from the position of labeling it a person's private matter.

Granted, these are semantics, but that's not to discount the fact that language is a powerful tool. After all, saying I am pro-privacy covers a hell of a lot of other things, too: I think the government has no business reading my email or my mail or listening in on my phone conversations -- anymore than I think it has the least bit of business trying to mandate according to one religion.

applause

[bonniers.livejournal.com]

Well put.

--bonnie

[christeos-pir.livejournal.com]

It's no excuse, much less a real reason, but it's human nature to categorize, often to the point of the fallacy of Hasty Generalization. I don't like peabrained fundamentalists and televangelists, therefore Christianity is bad. She doesn't like man-hating Feminazis, so Feminists are bad. He got beat up by a Black kid in elementary school, so all African-Americans are N*****s. You don't like powermad warmongerers, so Conservatism is bad. And so on...

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Which was my point to Aishuu: those folks with some degree of awareness of these distinctions, will clarify (if they don't use the qualifiers outright). It's the ones who not only don't clarify but fail/refuse to see any distinction at all that really piss me off.

Besides, I was overdue for my weekly rant.

[sevun.livejournal.com]

This really came at an interesting time. I'm currently attending a "Women in French lit" class.
We also had quite the same discussion in the beginning. Suffice it to say, it came down to how people define the term feminist or feminism.
For me personally I choose the Simone de Beauvoir way of Humanist. I see the line of sexual division as being irrelevant in choosing occupation or deciding who gets to say or do what: a writer is a writer, not a male or female writer.
What many, including myself, see is that feminism is a side that can take the extreme part in progressing much needed revolutions.
I respect feminist movements, but if someone were to ask me whether, I was a "Simone de Beauvoir" or a "Virginia Woolf" I would have to take the Simone de Beauvoir" way.
In the sense that I choose to fight for the disintegration of gender lines.
I am neither a man nor a woman, I am a being, who should be judged on my actions and my accomplishments not on not my sex.
That's not to say I don't see biologically sexual differences. My thought processes and those of a male will always be different, ultimately I choose to follow my own course rather than a man's.
I cannot call myself a Feminist, rather I call myself a Humanist.
But hate should not exist for the foundations of our liberties. To those women who are ignorant of their past, not much can be expected of their futures.
Just my two cents ;)

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I studied everything from Adrienne Rich and Bell Hooks to Simone de Beauvoir and Luce Irigaray, and believe me, those French feminists make the Americans look like amateurs when it comes to absolute raving wildness. But it's still as much of a range as any other -ism; there are moderate, liberals, and even conservatives (like those who say there are sex-based differences, but that the material and social should be equal, perhaps?).

I find the gender differences to be much smaller than some people realize; if I take the tests which purport to rank (stereotypical) masculine and feminine traits, I *always* come out between 80% to 90% male, even down to some of the things a few scientists have tried to argue might be genetic, like how we organize and understand space. (I think it's supposed to be that men go by direction, while women use landmarks, but then, perhaps I'm the exception that proves the rule.)

Still, there's a difference between knowing enough to be able to qualify where you stand, and painting everything with the same tarring brush of I HATE _____. CP, above, is right; it's much like saying you hate all Xtians because some Catholic priest molested a child, and thus all Xtians are child molesters. Then again, this does seem to be the type of hasty generalization used so often in politics... maybe next week I'll plan a rant about people who throw around stereotypes of 'conservative' and 'liberal'. Hah.

To those women who are ignorant of their past, not much can be expected of their futures.

Beautifully said.

[sevun.livejournal.com]

I find the gender differences to be much smaller than some people realize

VERY true. That's why I find it bizarre that people still don't realize that gender differences in this day and age is like solely using flint for tools.

The funny thing is, every time I take those fem/mas traits tests they always come out to be "non-categorical". I kinda feel proud that I can screw around with peoples inane categorizations ;)

[mayakda.livejournal.com]

Good rant.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I almost hit friday without ranting once. Couldn't let that happen.

[mikkeneko.livejournal.com]

The radical anythings aren't much to deal with.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that about sums it up.

[dayglow-pirate.livejournal.com]

*On August 26th, I'll be raising a toast to my mother, my grandmothers, my aunts, my cousins, my great-grandmothers, all the women in my family and this nation who sweated and fought and marched and petitioned and made themselves into holy terrors so that some day, their daughters could vote, could own property, could be educated, could make a livable salary...*

I'll be raising a glass to those ladies that fought, and continue to fight, as well.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

It's always struck me as odd that this one day doesn't get more awareness, really. You'd think after all this time, it'd get SOME kind of acknowledgement, so the upcoming generations know it's a day to remember and celebrate.

But no hallmark cards, please.

[klingonpoo.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I'll be joining you in a toast on August 26th in honor of all the woman who sacrificed so much to give us what we have today.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason such a topic gets into my head everytime around this year is my awareness of the date. It's also my birthday (shhh, since I don't actually celebrate my birthday ON my birthday anyway), and for years the only thing on any damn birthday calendar was that some stupid ship was blown up in the War of 1812. I was in high school before I came across a note about the date of the 19th Amendment -- hell, you'd think that would be something worth mentioning for a "what happened on your birthday", doncha?

Of course, even though my mother was one who's always preached that you can be and do anything you want, including never marry, raise kids on your own, have a fabulous career and if you do marry, then go right ahead and be making more money than your husband if you want! sort of thing... that this would've been one thing I'd've expected her to point out to me, if she'd known.

Then again, it's not like she planned it. I was born three days late. I was supposed to be a Leo, damn it! ;D

[i-paint-the-sky.livejournal.com]

I dislike people who take feminism as meaning Women > Men.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

The men I've met who assume [ feminism = women > men ] are often seeking a way to justify their discomfort with strong women. The women who take that approach are usually the more radical feminists, and I'm not into that. Never have been. It's the women who are anti-feminist that boggle me; it's rather like being Jewish and joining the Nazi party. At least from where I stand, it seems it would take a certain amount of self-loathing to insist you refuse to ally with a mindset of equality.

[achiasa.livejournal.com]

Interestingly (and sadly), a minority of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe did collaborate, even to the extent of policing the ghettos, handing over fugitives, and loading people onto the gas trucks and concentration camp trains. By aiding the Nazis they gained immunity for themselve and their families, and a decent standard of living. That continued right up to 1945, when the Nazis became desperate to cover their tracks and started shipping everyone off regardless of status.

I suppose you could almost relate that to the women who genuinely like being kept by their men, and who refuse to stand up for equality out of fear of losing their comforts. Like that awful Surrendered Wives thing.

Please excuse random commenting all over the place.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Yes, that occurred to me while writing replies, that a woman saying she hates feminists is a touch like being Jewish and announcing you think Hitler had the right idea. Not to demean what Jews went through, but it's one of those shocker things, that might work in some circumstances to make someone wake up to what it's like to be a second-class citizen, your whole life.

I mean, geeez. Those women I've met who fuss about "feminists" in that disdainful tone... y'know, what I find oddest is that these are often the women who work as receptionists, and secretaries, and sometimes didn't even finish college because they got married and were pregnant -- even if they did work outside the home, it's hardly in a major career path. Almost like the stay-at-home moms (the ones I've met, at least) are okay with making a CHOICE to do so, just as the career women are pleased with their CHOICE -- and if ever displeased, at least it's a choice (as Okaasan points out above). It's the women who are trapped in neither, not a full stay-at-home nor a successful career woman, who seem most annoyed.

Maybe this is because on some level, they feel the pressure to do more in some way, but have never risen to it, for whatever reason. It would be easier to be stay-at-home, I suppose (although kids are definitely a full-time job, no doubt about that!), but economy and reality sometimes contrive to make it necessary to have both parents working. Maybe there's a speck of resentment on the anti-feminist women's part that they're trapped between the old and new, and don't fit in either... I'm probably not putting it well.

But then, I don't really have a great deal of respect, I'll be honest, for bright women who are willing to settle for being secretaries, receptionists, and any other eyecandy job. I know the difference between those who do such a job because they're good at it, or because it's all that's available, and the ones who do it because it's easy and they get admiring looks from male bosses. I always feel just a tiny bit annoyed with the latter; they make it a damn sight harder for men to take ME seriously on the job, when a girl is tittering away on the phone. I want to say, no, not all women are morons in the work place. Don't judge me by that little girl, thanks.

Eh, now it's my turn to be completely random, I'm afraid.

[ex-saraswath377.livejournal.com]

What bothers me equally is that most men feel like their masculinity is threatened if they're associated with feminists OR the term feminist. A former boyfriend of mine was perhaps more feminist than I am, but we had a 45 or so minute argument about whether he was actually feminist since he also equated "feminist" with "feminazi". To him the term had gained such a negative connotation that he couldn't even wrap his mind around the possibility that he could be one, although he had everything but the name.

When anyone makes that equation in front of me, I immediately start asking where these feminazis are. Perhaps it's just where I live, but I've certainly never met one and neither has anyone I've known.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I've actually met one or two, and they were quite unpleasant on the whole. It pervaded everything they did and said and were. Okay, I get the idea of being obsessed, but being obsessed with whether your gender is better or worse or more equal or less, all the time, seems a bit on the unhealthy side to me. I mean, I don't really spend the majority of my days obsessing about what's between my legs versus someone else's, and what this says about us.

Then again, I don't have to, because of things like having the vote, and affirmative action, and a number of other rights that I usually take for granted -- until I hear someone speak/act as if these are all rights that could be so easily disregarded. That's my other hot button, affirmative action, which does dovetail with feminism.

I'm sometimes annoyed about the fact that I still earn only about 85 cents on the dollar compared to male coworkers, but it's still a hell of a sight better than the 45 cents my mother earned at my age. It's not perfect, but every now and then ya gotta look back and say, "wow, we have come a long way." I suppose what bothers me most about some radical feminists is that too often their dialogue seems tilted towards the half-empty, instead of seeing the half-full. Still only half, but come ON, just between our grandmothers' generation and now, amazing leaps...

[maldoror-gw.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to say I've never met that attitude among women. Among men...I've heard 'feminist' used as a dirty word. But *smirk* never when they knew I was around. And not often at that, though I think that's more due to the PC Police than actual sensibility. I know they're just scared little pissants, so I normally just give them a Look and leave it at that.

I sort of understand where this attitude could be coming from. The extremists are always the ones to grab the headlines (just look at the news...) Then again, some of these extreme practices were what got us the vote. I don't approve of going overboard, especially nowadays when there are soooo many ways to protest without getting insensitive, violent and vicious in our turn (I'm sorry, 10000 years of oppression does not justify us doing it to them now). Live and let live, and just ignore the idiots, ladies; you'll live longer and happier lives.

That being said, the day some government tries to take away my right to vote - or tries to call the shots on what I can do with my body - and I've run out of reasonable means to protest...Emma Goldman, Emily Pankhurst, give me the strength to be one of those who starves themselves in protest and breaks the fucking windows.

(I like your four-point plan, though I wonder if those women would miss the right to vote; with that mentality, I bet they're part of the 50%+ of the population who don't exert it).

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

The ones in that I.H.F. group who do vote seem to lean towards voting either who their husbands support or who their fathers support. In which case, they might as well NOT vote, thank you, because they're fucking up the chances for the rest of us who actually give a damn about the outcome.

But I agree about Emma et al: if that's what it ever comes to, I hope I have those guts, too.

[tammy212.livejournal.com]

A friend here in 2008 pointed me to your four-point plan, and it made my heart sing. And I'd like to add an idea or two:

5) Don't pick up any book written after 1970. You don't want to read about any women, real or fictional, fighting her own battles and achieving her own gains. You want to read about passive nigaudes letting men rescue them. Feminism won us books with heroes we can emulate and heroes in our own images.

6) Don't go out to any music concerts that are not considered culturally classical or morally uplifting. Don't go to plays or movies that are not considered improving to your mind--forget violence, sex, B-list, and D-list movies. Don't go out to dance clubs or bars alone, and definitely don't go to edgy ones even with an escort. Feminism won you the right to go to all of these things alone or with the girls.

7) Assume, when you are riding a train, subway, or bus, or when you are walking down the street, that you will be patted, pinched, whistled at, cat-called, or propositioned. Feminism made it wrong for men to do these things to you as a matter of course. Without it, you are fair game.

8) When a boss or co-worker propositions you, lay down and spread your legs. Feminism won you laws by which you can sue them to make them stop--you should not make use of them if you don't believe in feminism.

9) When your partner batters you, do not call the cops or run to a battered women's shelter. Feminism has been fighting for years to create domestic violence awareness among the police, get more laws to protect victims of stalking and domestic violence, and to build more shelters, but you don't believe in feminist goals. You don't want to make use of these things.

And, should you ever extract your cranium from your anal orifice and realize that you are a feminist, don't worry. The rest of us will have been here all along, fighting to keep it going. We'll welcome you.

Tamora Pierce

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Oh, oh, very good points. I didn't even realize it's been three years since I posted this, since it gets a comment every now and then (or someone commenting on it on a later post, instead). Maybe I should do a revised version at some point, and incorporate the various suggestions & update the plan, eh? And knowing what I know now, I'd add a tenth point:

10) If you are pregnant, about to get pregnant, or may ever be pregnant, just quit your job now, because you're gonna lose it anyway. The minute your boss finds out you're pregnant, he's going to fire you, because you can't possibly work a job and be a mother -- and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it.

*rolls eyes*

The frustration under this rant, though, is that growing up I used to see those "what happened on..." books that they'd give children. My sister's birthday was National Smile Day, which pleased her to no end -- my birthday? All that was ever listed was some stupid ship got blown up in the War of 1812. Everyone else's birthdays I looked up had something nifty like an unusual holiday or a cool event, and me, some stupid ship.

Then when I was twenty, I learned that I was born on the fiftieth anniversary of the day women got the vote. I was absolutely floored. If I'd known that as a kid, wow, that beat National Smile Day hands-down, all the way! I could've had gloating points in return and plenty left over for rainy days, y'know?

The crazy thing -- or perhaps not so crazy -- is that although I don't care to celebrate birthdays (never have all that much, honestly, regardless of age) -- after I learned that, I do like to celebrate on my birthday. It's just not my birthday I'm celebrating.

[lady-rilwen.livejournal.com]

Linked here via above commenter. Good rant. Very good rant.

Radical feminists annoy me so much. It's like "You, off my side, you're making my side look bad."
But the people who declare they hate all feminism? They can DIAF.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Heh, thanks. Every now and then I think of doing a sticky post at the top of my journal with links to rants, since that's what people seem to come here most often for (gee, I have no idea why). Then I realize that the sticky post by this point would probably be a dissertation length in and of itself, and I decide it can wait.

Radical feminists annoy me so much. It's like "You, off my side, you're making my side look bad."

I think the key (for me) is whether or not someone is arguing feminism -- that is, "men and women are equal" -- or whether they're arguing reversal. The latter being more of the "you put us down for X number of generations, and now it's our turn to be on top". That's not equal, that's just a reverse of the existing. That's just rebuilding the master's house with the master's tools, to cop the famous phrase from Audre Lorde. Part of my dislike, too, is that such reversal expects (if not engenders for some) a sense of guilt, that those of the oppressor-class must now compensate doubly for past offenses.

I get the arguments, I do, but that doesn't mean I care to live knowing that some folks are stomping on others and other folks around me are acting out of guilt. I don't want to get my job or my respect or my rights because it's retribution for my mother not getting any of that; I want to get all that because I earned it myself.

Most of the time I don't even think of radical feminists as "radical" so much as "reversal" -- and to tell the truth, I have met very very few in my life, and those few were usually while in academia. The ivory tower seems to encourage, sometimes, that kind of non-pragmatic hyper-version of reality, regardless of field. I guess I just consider myself a pragmatic feminist. Okay, and a very snarky one, but only on alternate tuesdays.

[beautiful_dreams_25]

\O/ Yay! Right-on! Now, I know what to say whenever someone tells me that I shouldn't be a feminist. ;D

They did it so they, and the women to come, could hold their heads high and say: I WILL NOT BE DISCOUNTED, AND I WILL NOT BE IGNORED. I AM YOUR EQUAL.

-waves a flag- Yep, yep, yep. :]

Because, in the end, equality is all about taking control of oneself, not just making sure that "everything is in order", since order can often be wrong in many ways. Now, if only people will realize that "having everything taken care of for them" is not something they really want...=_=