kaigou: this is what I do, darling (1 kusuri-uri contemplate)
[personal profile] kaigou
[ ETA: to clarify a term I frequently use (but may be unfamiliar to some), "animanga" is a portmanteau of "anime" and "manga", meant as a shorthand for "the Japanese illustrated-story publishing/production industries, including manga (graphic novels), illustrated 'light' novels, four-panel comics, animated television shows, animated miniseries/OVA (Original Animation Videos), and animated theatrical releases". Because there's often a great deal of cross-pollination between the two types (printed vs. moving), I tend to use "animanga" to refer to the entire ball of wax in one easy word. ]

We all know (and likely loathe, at least given the posts I see go past from most of you) the damsel in distress: she does something stupid, gets captured/hurt, has to be saved by the hero, and usually ends up clinging to him. I've been browsing some of the manga that readers have classified (on reader-tagging database sites) as "strong female lead" or "strong female character", and I think we need an intermediary.

Something like, "female character damselfied by the author", or "damsel with fighter tendencies," for a less anti-author spin on it.

The so-called "strong female characters" usually go like this: she's relatively outspoken, strong-willed, and ostensibly very good at whatever she does (even if in some stories we never see her do anything, we're at least told she's good). She's independent, and a common expression or thought among the transistional damsel is that she wants to 'stand on her own two feet'. She'll often explicitly state that she intends to fight [the big bad], alongside the hero, as his team-mate or equal. She doesn't see the hero as her rescuer, but as her mentor or her role model (and sometimes as the person she aspires to equal).

Cases in point: Tokine in Kekkaishi, Sakura, Hinato, hell just about any of the female characters in Naruto, Rukia in Bleach, Lenalee in D.Gray-Man, Marie/Soma in Gundam 00, Hilde in Gundam Wing, Kallen in Code Geass. Yet to be determined if Yura (from Nurarihyon no Mago) will fall into this category, as the fight's not done, so there's still chance for her to fall in line.

These are all combatants, btw; I don't think this transitional category applies to civilians, like Winry (of Fullmetal Alchemist) -- as a non-fighter, her most likely means of expression (in a sense, "her way of fighting") is not going to be head-on battle-mode, so it doesn't seem right to measure her by the same standards.

For each of the cases in point (and plenty others but I'm midway through drawer-building and waiting for glue to dry, so keeping this short) -- the introductory pattern, as combatant, is usually as above. Somewhere mid-battle, however, the damselfied combatant is tripped up. One of three things will happen. Either she doesn't have enough spiritual oomph, eg Tokine, Lenalee, and just about every female character in Bleach. Or she doesn't have the will-power/dedication (or alternately, can't overcome her doubt in herself), eg Kallen, Marie/Soma, and Yura (in her earliest fight-scenes). Or the author simply sets her up against fighters who just happen to out-rank her -- Hilde, and nearly every female in Naruto.

Which ultimately amounts to: she still needs to be rescued, but with a twist: she gets mad at herself for ending up in a place that requires the hero rescue her. You can see the differentiation most clearly in Nurarihyon no Mago, actually: Kana is a true damsel in distress, captured, helpless, and waiting anxiously for someone to come save her, and it doesn't even occur to her that she might've, or could've, done anything on her own behalf. Yura, in contrast, is annoyed at needing to be rescued, and determined to do her best to prevent it from happening again.

So what we get is the apparent warrior-woman, trapped in the position of damsel-in-distress (injured, incapacitated, or just plain outranked and unable to contribute to the overall fight), but also consumed by frustration at her position. She invariably rails helplessly against her, well, helplessness, and we're supposed to see this as a fighting spirit, and ignore that basically she was set up to fail. Again and again these transitional damsels throw themselves against someone far stronger, but digging into that observation means realizing that even these so-called warrior-damsels are always set up as weaker in some way, from the get-go. The story's premise either presumes the female character to be weaker (ie Tokine) or undermines the female character enough to destroy her original potential (Sakura, Lenalee).

We're supposed to see the warrior-damsel's determination to fight "against the odds" as bravery... but I can't help but note that in nearly every bloomin' instance, the fight doesn't cause the warrior-damsel to power-up like it does for her fellow (male) character. It just beats her down, and puts her back into the box of needing to be rescued. The only real difference is that we got teased with the possibility that this time, it wouldn't be so, and we got a lot of words from the heroine about how she wants to fight and/or be acknowledged by the hero and/or be equal to the hero in strength -- but the bottom line is that the message in the actual text is that this will never happen. But that's okay! As long as she wishes it might, that makes her strong female, because at least she's not helplessly accepting her damsel position.

Or maybe it just makes her kinda stupid, for entering battles with fighters who out-rank and out-flank her. Or maybe what makes her stupid is signing up for a story with an author who give plenty of lip service among the fan service, but has no intention of actually following through.

ETA: there's another way some authors will handle the "what do I do with the extra chick in the party" question, which is to justify the sabotage as meaningful sacrifice. (The women in Naruto, and Lenalee, get set up for this repeatedly.) The method is this: by some means, the warrior-damsel does take on (and frequently then proceeds to kick serious ass of) a pretty scary big bad -- but in the course of doing so, is either: pushed past her limits and burnt out (Sakura, Tokine), if she's not injured to the point of comatose (thus rendering her not just injured but pretty much a NPC for the rest of the fight, cf Lenalee).

The storyteller's rationalization, as I see it, is thus: every fight must have both a physical climax and an emotional one. The physical, of course, is obvious; the emotional may differ each time. The latter will show up as "what are you fighting for?" or "is this really important enough reason to fight?" or even "do you really have it in you to kill someone?"

A favorite trope of Japanese animanga is the "I fight to protect those precious to me" (well, actually, this is probably a pretty common fight-justification in stories the world over, now that I think about it). If your character is going into a fight and you want emotional conflict along with physical, the lowest-hanging fruit is definitely the "why would you fight this hard?" The character, naturally, will doubt himself suddenly, but hey, look, there! His female teammate fought and gave it her all -- whether now she's injured and rooting for him, or injured and needing his protection (since the author has now rendered her not just badly hurt but also suddenly stupid in terms of any remaining self-defense skills), or just plain out cold. In short, her sacrifice inspires him while at the same time providing an object lesson in "the reason why he fights so hard" -- to protect girls his friends from going through such pain.

Which I think can have its place in stories, and is certainly a valid point in any action-based bildungsroman, but it gets tiresome when you realize that the sacrifice-and-example is pretty much always played by the action-girl, and frequently it's the only role the action-girl can even play. For all the homoerotic subtext some fans want to see, it's actually not very common to see a male character throw himself head-first against overwhelming odds for the sake of an injured or comatose male team-mate or friend. (The various Gundam series and Naruto are major exceptions, though, which might be why they also subtextually hit a lot of buttons, too, because they capitalize on tropes that are more often male-female in other stories.)

As a footnote to all of the above, one thing I've noticed increasing is the number of mangaka who seem to try and balance "lesser physical power" with "greater ruthlessness". Tokine in Kekkaishi is an absolutely stellar example of this, with absolutely no mercy while her male counterpart is really a softie. Sakura shows major signs of ruthlessness, too, but she's not without some modicum of compassion.

The animanga I recall from the 90s and early aughts, the girl's more likely to be a blowhard about having no sympathy for the enemy, but at the last minute! she can't bring herself to fire! and the hero thus must step in. The updated version is that the girl has no qualms about going for the jugular... if only the author hadn't set up the premise or circumstances to make sure she wouldn't actually have enough muscle/power behind her punch. It's like, well, now she's given the opportunity and guts to shoot -- except the author took all her ammunition away.

All these are just more reasons on the list of why I love Balsa and Gen. Oliva Armstrong so much.
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

Date: 14 Sep 2010 09:46 pm (UTC)
chibidrunksanzo: (The plan)
From: [personal profile] chibidrunksanzo
I aspire to be Major General Armstrong. At the very least, I plan on cosplaying her.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] chibidrunksanzo - Date: 15 Sep 2010 05:09 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] chibidrunksanzo - Date: 15 Sep 2010 05:33 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] maire - Date: 18 Sep 2010 08:53 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 14 Sep 2010 10:19 pm (UTC)
branchandroot: oak against sky (Default)
From: [personal profile] branchandroot
*two thumbs up* Of course, one of the things that ticks me off the most is that so many readers/fen don't seem to see that the author is doing this on purpose. Rukia is my "favorite" example. Huge fan conflicts over whether she's a wimp or not, and no one seems to stop and say "wait, hasn't anyone noticed just how much work KT has been doing to make absolutely sure she can't fight effectively despite the narrative lip service to her strength?". I mean, seriously. We are so far past 'three times is conspiracy' by now.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] morkeleb - Date: 15 Sep 2010 10:25 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] morkeleb - Date: 15 Sep 2010 03:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 26 Sep 2010 03:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 27 Sep 2010 08:16 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 27 Sep 2010 09:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 28 Sep 2010 08:00 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 29 Sep 2010 06:57 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 5 Oct 2010 08:22 am (UTC) - Expand

P.S.

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 27 Sep 2010 10:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] diorama - Date: 25 Sep 2010 11:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] diorama - Date: 27 Sep 2010 11:12 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] diorama - Date: 27 Sep 2010 11:14 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] diorama - Date: 27 Sep 2010 09:19 pm (UTC) - Expand

one other thing before I rush to work.

From: [personal profile] diorama - Date: 27 Sep 2010 09:45 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 14 Sep 2010 11:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] genre-savvy.livejournal.com
I believe the TV Tropes Wiki would call this the Faux Action Girl. I'd call it one of the most obnoxious character types around.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] kellicat - Date: 15 Sep 2010 03:29 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 26 Sep 2010 03:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 28 Sep 2010 01:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 28 Sep 2010 11:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 5 Oct 2010 01:02 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 14 Sep 2010 11:34 pm (UTC)
dagas_isa: Kanzaki Nao from Liar Game (Default)
From: [personal profile] dagas_isa
I hate this trope with a fiery vengeance, but it's a hate directed solely at the authors for putting them in these situations time, after time, after time (we could add in a few 'after times' to simulate a montage here) instead of the characters, who, if we believe the lip service are all perfectly capable of kicking ass. They just always 'coincidentally' end up in the wrong situations.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] dagas_isa - Date: 15 Sep 2010 06:41 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 15 Sep 2010 03:03 am (UTC)
ivoryandhorn: A black and white photo of a woman against a black background, wearing a black feathery cape. Her pale face and hands stand out starkly against the black. (naruto: clones approve)
From: [personal profile] ivoryandhorn
This is one of those things that seems so obvious in retrospect, but if you had asked me prior to reading this post to articulate any part of this I would have drawn a total blank. "Damsel in transition" is totally going into my mental toolbox.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] wilhelminabenedict - Date: 25 Sep 2010 08:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 26 Sep 2010 03:30 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 28 Sep 2010 01:30 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] wilhelminabenedict - Date: 27 Sep 2010 04:42 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 28 Sep 2010 01:31 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 15 Sep 2010 03:14 am (UTC)
starlady: (ultraviolet)
From: [personal profile] starlady
Kallen is pretty ruthless too, come to think of it.

Anyway, yup, total agreement.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] starlady - Date: 15 Sep 2010 04:53 am (UTC) - Expand

*Jumps in from metafandom*

From: [personal profile] drakyndra - Date: 25 Sep 2010 08:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] drakyndra - Date: 27 Sep 2010 08:00 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 15 Sep 2010 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] taithe
Heh I remember telling someone how FMA ruined me for other shounen because Arakawa does an excellent job of establishing multiple strong female characters.

The trend you describe is aggravating especially since as a young girl it was disheartening to see the action-girl get beat down for the sake of action-boy. Sailor Moon used to be one of my favorite shows because it actually flipped the gender roles. Action-boy often got beaten down and needed saving from the action-heroine. At the same time I wished action-boy didn't necessarily have to be sacrificed. Or that gender didn't have to play into it. *sigh*

Date: 15 Sep 2010 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] giethe.livejournal.com
Hmmm. Does this mean you're equating "Strong female" = 'battle prowess' here? So far, what I get from your entry is you want to see females win in battles to justify their 'strong female lead' position.

Date: 15 Sep 2010 07:55 pm (UTC)
brainwane: My smiling face, including a small gold bindi (Default)
From: [personal profile] brainwane
I have no particular response here but wanted to let you know that I was glad to read this.

Date: 17 Sep 2010 12:42 am (UTC)
alias_sqbr: the symbol pi on a pretty background (existentialism)
From: [personal profile] alias_sqbr
Hi, I got here via [community profile] animanga_news, hope that's ok.

Anyway: I totally agree. I was just thinking similar thoughts last night watching "Covert Affairs", which is a live action US show with a "kick ass" female protagonist, but in all the fight scenes where she had a male ally he got to do more of the fighting and pretty much all of the killing.

Another related trope, I think, is the woman who is genuinely very powerful, but can't control her power, so that she sometimes utterly destroys the bad guys but more often than not her powers cause her mostly distress or turn her evil. The overall moral still being that it is only men who can use and control physical/violent power in a positive effective and satisfying way. The idea of a woman doing so just feels wrong, so something always happens to stop it: she is defeated, she can't deal with the power, she turns evil etc.

I've been reading/watching mostly shojo and josei recently, which has a slightly different set of issues and less of an emphasis on fighting. But I have been enjoying the way that Yankumi from Gokusen is a better fighter than everyone ever, including her love interests :)

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 23 Sep 2010 03:23 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] alias_sqbr - Date: 2 Oct 2010 10:47 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 25 Sep 2010 11:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] alias_sqbr - Date: 2 Oct 2010 09:28 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 17 Sep 2010 03:26 am (UTC)
cypher: (gonna have to cut someone)
From: [personal profile] cypher
Thank you for making this post! It's a really good distinction to make, and a lot of interesting insights in the post and its comments.

Date: 19 Sep 2010 02:06 pm (UTC)
llyse: people making OMG faces (OMG)
From: [personal profile] llyse
This, this is totally articulating a lot of the reason why I can't stand many, many shows. Going to read the links I snagged from post and comments, thanks very much!



(Extra: Have you by any chance watched the Fafner anime? I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts with the treatment of gender on that one, because while I personally think it's done fairly well, it's been some time since I last watched it and I am kind of biased towards liking it.)

Date: 19 Sep 2010 06:06 pm (UTC)
ravenbell: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravenbell
A couple of thoughts from an old school otaku.

The exact same trope exists, gender reversed, in most shojo series like "Cardcaptor Sakura," "Sailor Moon," and "Princess Tutu." The trouble is that shojo have all but disappeared in recent years, subsumed by the moe/cute girl and josei/young woman genres. Most of the fantasy and action shows popular in the West just aren't aimed at girls of this age group. The only recent shonen I can think of that has a true female lead is "Soul Hunter," which has Maka, who still has to share the role with a lot of others.

If you look back at the 80s and early 90s, the action girls were everywhere - "Bubblegum Crisis," "Dirty Pair," "Patlabor," "Armitage," "Iria," and "Slayers" - but they were mostly seinen and comedy heroines. I think their disappearance in favor of moe girls has a lot to do with the changing demographics of anime - the industry is now pandering to the hardcore otaku base a lot harder than they used to, and shojo never sold very well in the West.

When you get away from the typical cookie-cutter Shonen Jump-style titles, you do get some stronger supporting girls like Yoko from "Gurren Lagaan" and Re-L from "Ergo Proxy," but you really have to look for them.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] ravenbell - Date: 20 Sep 2010 12:21 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] lady_ganesh - Date: 28 Sep 2010 02:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] tamerterra.livejournal.com - Date: 25 Sep 2010 07:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] ingvild - Date: 26 Sep 2010 09:44 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] waterfall8484 - Date: 26 Sep 2010 11:08 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] waterfall8484 - Date: 27 Sep 2010 10:15 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] hymnia - Date: 27 Sep 2010 03:08 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 20 Sep 2010 04:41 pm (UTC)
alas: (Tired)
From: [personal profile] alas
ARGH

Okay, I will attempt a more coherent reaction than that, but yes I hate this character trope like burning. Interesting discussion points coming out of this though.

Sometimes it seems as though the author just isn't entirely sure 'what to do' with the female character....Other times, I get the sense the author isn't sure how to balance the author's own preference/wish/story that focuses on the male character with the heroine's supporting role. That is, if "the girl" gets too much to do, what's left for the hero?

This irritates me more than anything else, because it's clear, particularly with series like Bleach and Naruto, that the creators have trouble with writing female characters, not supporting ones. Male supporting characters get to be awesome and take names - for example, if any of the male supporting characters in Naruto happened to be female, that would be...so awesome my head might just explode. Shikamaru! Neji! Gaara! They all manage major character arcs and growth in very individual ways, without robbing Naruto of main character status. (Indeed, the strength of their arcs, and the influence Naruto has on them - without weakening them - only adds to his status.) In comparison...from what I last remember of Naruto, pretty much all the supporting female characters just becomes medics without any real explanation as to why they would gravitate towards that (even Sakura.). WTF Kishimoto, I could buy being a medic becoming popular with Tsunade as Hokage, but the fact that it's all girls, and none of the boys taking up medic training shows how empty that premise is. *gasp!* We can't have mentors across gender lines, oh noes. (I mean, look what a crappy job Kakashi does with Sakura - not that he's much better with Naruto, but there's a little more effort there.) I must go to FMA and Izumi for that.

everyone else seems to think Rukia et al are great Strong Female Leads, and I'm not sure I'd even call them transitional damsels.

I think that just shows how badly written a lot of female characters are, because, unfortunately there are some series that by comparison make the Bleach female characters actually look like Strong Female Leads.


Or maybe it just makes her kinda stupid, for entering battles with fighters who out-rank and out-flank her.

There is clearly room for an epic series that will actually use this in some sensible and interesting manner, where a bona fide damsel in distress or faux action girl actually realizes this, and ...IDK, becomes a Machiavellian chess master a la Lelouch in Code Geass or something. I think I really enjoyed that about Code Geass, considering that it was so action packed - that Lelouch was consistently shown as quite physically weak; and even though he could work around it, it was something he did have to work around.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] alas - Date: 21 Sep 2010 06:24 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 25 Sep 2010 07:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ex_verdure627
Great little essay/article! I got linked here from metafandom on LJ, and I'm glad to have read this. Especially because animanga articles don't often get highlighted on metafandom, haha.

Anyways, I'll have to agree that "transitional damsels" is going in my mental toolbox, since it's a very good term for an archetype I had noticed, but not really had a good way to describe why they bothered me. And man, I'm glad that D. Gray-Man is one of your big examples, since the change in Lenalee's character after her haircut (as I refer to it, haha) annoyed me enough to drop the manga and not buy the volumes after that point.

Though, I'm glad that the trope is changing. "Strong female characters" that fall into this category are very common now, and truly strong female characters are also getting more common. I don't keep up with anime and manga now as much as I used to, since I tend to gravitate towards "older" series in both age and demographic, but I will say that a good anime to watch that really plays with this idea is Revolutionary Girl Utena. I'd go as far to say that one of the central messages of the series is about the damsel vs. heroine and what qualifies each.

Date: 25 Sep 2010 08:39 pm (UTC)
rusty_halo: i'm the one who gripped you tight and raised you from tvtropes (spn: castiel: tvtropes)
From: [personal profile] rusty_halo
Great post. I don't know the anime examples, but this is totally the reason that the writing of Jo on Supernatural frustrated me so much.

Date: 25 Sep 2010 09:23 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] susanna
I just wonder whether this pattern is really a new development, the "damsel in transition" as a replacement for the damsel in distress. I still remember the Prydain Chronicles that I read as a child, where Eilonway starts out stronger and more clever than Taran, and in the end she's left home (going on adventures is not suitable for a princess), decides to follow the warriors, and ends up having to be rescued. The same goes for Li Si in "Jim Button" by Michael Ende: She wants to go on adventures too, but ends up having to be rescued. (I don't think you know that one, but it's a very popular children's book in Germany, and very good, but the blatant sexism is annoying.) I also remember that even as a child I found this annoying.

With Sakura from Naruto I recognize a pattern that I also know from Jim Button: The girl is more intelligent, or at least better educated than the boys, but it turns out that all she has learnt is useless when it comes to real adventures. Boys like the message, as they are normally worse at the kind of education and learning you need to succeed at school, but in the end, the message is detrimental to boys. So, boys may succeed better in manga, girls in RL...

Ah, and we have Karin in Naruto. She does the thinking while Sasuke does the fighting. And Konan is the only character who invested some time into planning before she set out to fight Madara...

You bring up an interesting point when you mention that Kishimoto manages to give the male supporting characters (Lee, Gaara, Shikamaru... ) interesting arcs that don't take away anything from the hero, but he is not able to do this with Sakura. I think that with Sakura there are two problems: She should be more important than Gaara and Lee and Shikamaru - she should be on par with Sasuke, when it comes to importance, or even Naruto himself - and then she would be a real threat to Naruto, just as Sasuke is (a lot of people complain that he has become stronger than Naruto and takes too much "panel time" from him.) But the real problem is probably that Kishimoto is not able to imagine any interesting emotional conflict for a girl that is not linked to a boy. It's only older women who have lost all their loved ones who are ready to sacrifice themselves for their village or the world, as Tsunade or Chiyo do, or now Konan. In Naruto only women who are too old to count as love interests have a chance to be strong fighters.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] susanna - Date: 28 Sep 2010 07:37 am (UTC) - Expand

Here by metafandom

Date: 25 Sep 2010 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] fennel
I really adore your posting. You seem to have pretty much the same stance on the topic as I do, and "damsel with fighter tendencies" is a really nifty term for it.

What drives me up a wall is, indeed, the usual derailing such criticism gets (as your posting shows, someone commented to your posting with the usual attempt at derailing). Apparently, many people in fandom see it as really mean to ask for female characters who are equally capable to male characters in series like that.

Bleach seems to be the worst offender in that regard. I can't count the number of times where a woman is set up as somewhat strong, just to get completely knocked down, needing guys to step in. And if you bring it up? People cite the one time Orihime didn't need help to somehow prove Bleach is okay and that you totally are mean because you're saying female characters need all to have combat ability!!11 (except, of course, there's not exactly a surplus of characters like that threatening to blot out those without...)


The sad thing is that there are some canons with really capable female characters, even leads. ...But you're not allowed to bring them up. They will be dismissed as "moe", since "cast with lots of females that do awesome stuff" = "moe crap" the moment one design could be called cute.

One of my fandoms is like that.
The main girl (and no, there's no guy who could save her. The only noticeable guy is a shopkeeper) would give most shonen heroes a run for their money. She's also a sloth, really likes getting money, and her main tactic to solve incidents is shooting down everyone who gets into her way until someone manages to direct her to the true cause of the problem - which she mostly does so she can get back home faster and sleep.
The canon? Touhou.
Despite a female main character like that, despite a chessmistress character, despite the second main heroine being a take on the "massive power bursts at once" shonen kind of hero...everyone dismisses Touhou as "Moe crap". Yeah, some designs are pretty cute, but if you go by what the characters actually do... they're pretty badass indeed, and are very varied as far as personalities go. And capable? Yes, they are, more so than most male shonen leads, even putting fighting ability aside.

Or take another anime that routinely gets blasted as moe, because it dares to have female main characters. They just happen to be a group of soldiers. Who end up stopping a war. But that doesn't matter: The main girl is cute and has a ditzy moment sometimes, and therefore it's a moeblob show that doesn't deserve consideration. Also scary non-white people around, one of which has deep subtext with another person of her gender, can't have that.

Precure? Dismissed, cutesy magical girl stuff, can't be useful. Let's ignore the heroines punching the heck out of enemies, and there even being a female-female fight with similar iconography than, say, the Naruto vs Sasuke fight in Naruto.
Canaan? Dismissed, a female villain has a fanservice scene, must be fanservice crap. The main heroine and other capable female characters don't matter. Not to mention scary non-white and middle eastern people.
El Cazador? Dismissed. One of the heroines looks moe, and a dark skinned south-american female character with an afro? The sky would fall if anyone would watch it.
Moribito? People just ignore that this series exists.

Fandom really doesn't seem to want shows with lots of female characters doing things.

Bitter? Me? Never.

Also here by metafandom

Date: 26 Sep 2010 04:18 am (UTC)
miss_prince: (Default)
From: [personal profile] miss_prince
Touhou sounds and looks awesome. I haven't watched a lot of anime in recent years, but I'll put it on my to-watch list!

Re: Also here by metafandom

From: [personal profile] fennel - Date: 26 Sep 2010 06:41 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Here by metafandom

From: [identity profile] shadow-bright.livejournal.com - Date: 26 Sep 2010 06:06 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] fennel - Date: 26 Sep 2010 06:38 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Here by metafandom

From: [personal profile] ingvild - Date: 26 Sep 2010 10:01 am (UTC) - Expand

Re: Here by metafandom

From: [personal profile] fennel - Date: 26 Sep 2010 12:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] fennel - Date: 27 Sep 2010 05:52 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] ingvild - Date: 27 Sep 2010 02:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] ingvild - Date: 27 Sep 2010 04:26 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] fennel - Date: 27 Sep 2010 05:45 am (UTC) - Expand

Late to the party, prompted by metafandom too

Date: 25 Sep 2010 10:53 pm (UTC)
raletha: Noin in her  White Taurus and Quatre in Sandrock, battle together, back to back (gw - taurus & sandrock - got your back)
From: [personal profile] raletha
I finally got around to reading this! It's very interesting, and describes very well a lot of the reasons why I often don't relate well to some female character types. Now, I'm not familiar with the other anime you mention besides the Gundam series, and I've not seen all of Gundam 00, so I won't comment on that, but I did have one point of, not exactly disagreement, but divergence? Distinction?

I'm not sure I'd necessarily include Hilde in this trope, at least not within the full context of Gundam Wing. In isolation, she does fit it very well, but I'd rather not strip her of her narrative environment. I would view her as more of a human being in transition rather than particularly a female one. She represents, to me anyway, more the confusion and idealism of any given young Colonial civilian who joined up with OZ out of their desire for peace, rather than anything particularly female or feminine. This is largely due to (at least) two factors, one of which you mention: male characters are often in positions of vulnerability and must be rescued by their friends, male or female. Secondly, the other female characters in Gundam Wing give us a more complex metric with which to evaluate each individual female character in Gundam Wing. In sharp contrast to the transitional damsel, we have Sally, who one could argue subverts this trope in episode 12, fighting Bund & Co. while Wufei has his crisis of heart; and Noin, who is a very powerful character in her own right.

Noin in particular, I think. She pilots an inferior suit side-by-side with the Gundams and is never a liability: she more than pulls her own weight. We are told -- and can believe because of this -- that she is a better pilot than even Zechs. I know some fans find her loyalty to Zechs something that weakens her as a woman, but I think that's misguided. We know Zechs inspires exactly this kind of loyalty, regardless of sex. See Walker and Otto in particular. In some ways, Noin is the stronger for their examples. She won't die for Zechs or follow him blindly. Noin is no Griselda, ironic or otherwise; she is never so passive. Nor is Zechs Walter.

I also don't think we should take Wufei's evaluation of her as truth. I mean, Zechs is also appalled at the youth of the pilots, and neither he (see his outrage in Siberia, "You can't fight, can you?") nor Treize would kill an apparently unarmed, defeated, or surrendering opponent. Noin's response to Wufei's youth likely has more to do with her position as a military instructor of young men, for whom this instinct is entirely natural regardless of sex, and as a person with a particular kind of honor (or, more completely, tadashii [is that the right Japanese word? I hope so.]) in warfare (One of the big GW themes).

Dorothy, Catherine, and Relena are trickier to consider in these terms, but one of the things I like most about Gundam Wing is that its female characters are developed as human beings, not simply female arche- or stereo- types. I don't think Hilde fails, or is set up to fail, because she's a girl. I think it's because she's young, hopeful, and determined as a person, but her reach exceeds her grasp because of her naiveté and inexperience as a person. Of course, this could all simply be a garbled result of my own genderqueer afeminist goggles. YMMV.

(frozen) Re: Late to the party, prompted by metafandom too

Date: 26 Sep 2010 10:12 am (UTC)
ingvild: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ingvild
Catherine is probably the most obvious "supporting female" in the show. Dorothy, if anything, was created as a foil to Relena and was there to make the political aspects more complex. (But Dorothy is notoriously hard to get a grasp on.)

Relena had a strong enough presence that she began to change people's thoughts - WITHOUT the benefit of a Gundam. Relena was a non-combatant, so it doesn't matter that she had to be rescued. Her role was to unify people and open up for the possibility of peaceful solutions. Personally, I think that without her work on Earth and Une's in Space, the mutual surrender at the end of the show would never have been possible - and without that, the war wouldn't have ended.

(frozen) Re: Late to the party, prompted by metafandom too

From: [personal profile] raletha - Date: 26 Sep 2010 11:01 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 25 Sep 2010 10:53 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Just a little side-note: they did that to Susan in Prince Caspian - gave her a scene where she gets just enough time to show off her awesome fighting skillz, and then she conveniently forgets them so that Caspian can save her from the villains at the last minute. I may have facepalmed in the theatre.

(no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 29 Sep 2010 07:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

here via metafandom on LJ

Date: 25 Sep 2010 11:23 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I totally agree with this analysis. It bugs me that the role of action girls in most media (in anime and in Western media) is to always be second-best. Sure, she fights, but she never wins. She never gets her moment to shine. She, like many female characters throughout the history of stories, is inspiration. She can never be an equal to the male characters. And that bothers me. Sakura could have been so much more. Same with the other female characters of Naruto.

Now, in Fullmetal Alchemist, even though Hawkeye is the subordinate to Mustang and gets rescued by him several times, I think FMA handles the female/male dynamics better than a lot of other manga. I don't sense the same kind of sexism in it. Even though Hawkeye is not as powerful as Mustang, I get the sense that the text treats her as an equal.

I don't need my female characters to be super-powerful and stronger than all the guys. Unrealistic characters are just as bad as powerless ones. I love the action heroines of Tamora Pierce's stories, but I mostly just want to see more complex, flawed, interesting female characters who aren't just meant as eye candy or romantic interests.

Date: 26 Sep 2010 12:06 am (UTC)
sakanagi: Tyki tipping his hat with Road in the background (D.Gray-man - Tyki and Road)
From: [personal profile] sakanagi
It is, sadly, true that there are all too many characters hit by the "female character damselfied by the author" button. I've heard some really bad things about Bleach and Naruto in that regard, and I don't doubt that it isn't a rare thing. :(

A lot of the cases I've heard about where the author has seemingly sabotaged only the efforts of female characters in fights have been ones where the character is supposed to be on par with the guys, but somehow they never, ever get the chance. And then, like you say, they can be the encouraging factor for the guys to go ahead and do their best. It really is a terrible thing for authors to do. Now, that sort of thing doesn't make me dislike the characters, because it's not their fault the author is failing like that and, but it is disappointing to see it happen over and over.

Anyway, I'd like to take a moment to talk about how you've discussed Lenalee from D.Gray-man falling into this unfortunate category of being constantly sabotaged by the author. I actually don't think she does fit it as well as you're presenting, because although she certainly was tripped up into a helpless noncombatant state once, that's hardly the limit to her role in the story. Except for the one time when she couldn't fight due to overextending herself defeating Eshii, she's consistently presented as being a strong Exorcist (...except in the awful anime filler episodes where she tends to be a repeated victim of getting ill and helpless...) and more importantly, this is backed up with action.

There are even subversions. Later in the Level 4 arc, when her people including the main three male characters (two without any ability to fight back effectively against the enemy due to overextending themselves in their last fight) are losing and getting beaten up or killed in a hopeless fight, Lenalee's actually able to gather her resolve and character development, gain her powers back plus a hefty power up, and go in in a blaze of glory to save them.

The main problem as I see it is both that her previous loss of power lasted a long time in terms of chapters (although to be fair, the main male character's power loss also took a long time to be resolved), but also that the unfortunate prevelence of the "enforced female helplessnes!" plot in media caused a lot of people to completely write her off as being permanently in that category, when in fact it was just temporary, the same way it has been when the male characters have lost their powers in that series. Personally, I did not read that situation of being at all one which could possibly undermine Lenalee's original potential to the point of it being destroyed.

Date: 26 Sep 2010 04:16 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I can't say this was a happy thing to read because it hits so hard that alot, if not all, of my mainstream women in manga or TV I love fall into this category.

But it's freeing to know that the nagging feeling I've always had about why can't any of the people I love, say Kikyou, truly win; There's a reason!

I won't stop loving these characters. 1) They are too dear to me. 2)I feel like I as a person could fit into the category of a woman claiming to be/told to be tough and failing by external pressures. 3) I'm far too mainstream in what I get for TV and movies and anime. (Though YAY to the recommendations littered throughout the threads.)

I will think more about rewriting my internal canon muse, and it's biases, to make these characters win, like I want them too. In my fanfic universe, in my head, in MY life, these ladies can be as great as advertised.

Thank you for writing this post. I've even saved it for future reference.

pigtailedgirl from LiveJournal

Here via metafandom

Date: 26 Sep 2010 04:34 pm (UTC)
soukup: Kodama from Mononoke-hime (b and w)
From: [personal profile] soukup
OH MY GOD THIS POST IS SO AWESOME. It should be said that I don't read manga or even especially know what animanga is (it sounds like a movie or TV show based on a manga?), but absolutely everything you've mentioned here lines up so perfectly with every book I've ever read and every movie I've ever seen which I'd been told contained a "strong" female lead.

Why aren't women ever the biggest or the strongest? Why aren't we ever physically tough? Why can't we ever be pictured as the bravest and the most powerful ones in the room -- the ones who save the day in the end, whose strength is handled as an awesome thing? It feels like the only time I ever see anything resembling that is with female villains. And I am so, SO tired of women who've become evil because they have too much power, and of "gutsy" and "feisty" female ingenues (you've described this above in detail and you are RIGHT ON), and of women who get taken out at the start of the fight because there's this weird taboo around showing a female character actually throw a punch. (Maybe it has to do with the "you can't hit girls" thing? IDK.) In other words, why is Women Are Weak so set in stone? Perhaps more importantly, why do people find weak women so appealing or interesting or whatever that we've created this long list of tropes for writing them with variation so it doesn't get stale? Because that is what you have listed here: different ways that authors have come up with of writing weak women so that they can do it over and over and over again without it looking like the exact same story. Why do we fetishize this?

(Hmm. Sorry for having a little gutspill moment there. Evidently I've been thinking about all of this a lot more than I realized, and for quite a while now!)

I don't have any of the answers about why these patterns are in place. But the above are real questions, not rhetoric, and if you have any thoughts about/reactions to them, I'd love to read that, too. Either way, thank you so, so much for writing this meta -- it's made my day to know that someone else shares my frustrations.

Date: 26 Sep 2010 06:32 pm (UTC)
a_blackpanther: (Default)
From: [personal profile] a_blackpanther
(Here via metafandom)

I think this is an interesting discussion you've opened here, but i think it's unfair to exclude "civilian" characters. Even if they don't get to fight in the literal battle at the end they have their own resources and they have their own ways of fighting the good fight, but way before they get to put their skills to use they get similarly put out of the game. Or when they're put in some kind of dangerous position they turn into damsels in distress even though they previously haven't exhibited any such tendencies. It's just as annoying as when the action girl turns into the damsel in distress.

And, unfortunately, fanfic authors tend to be really fond of this trope too. Two examples who come to mind directly (as i don't really read manga) are Aeryn Sun (of Farscape) and Elizabeth Weir (of SGA), who turn into whimpering damsels in distress at the first sign of trouble in every other fanfic.

Date: 26 Sep 2010 11:27 pm (UTC)
waterfall8484: Close-up of Katara's face with the text "NOT a scared little girl". (Katara by topazera)
From: [personal profile] waterfall8484
You're right about including civilian characters. In the context of these works it wouldn't matter so much if a civilian ultimately failed to reach the same level as other characters, as long as they were shown fighting with all the resources and talents to their disposal. That being said it wouldn't even be necessary for them to fail, as there are other ways of being useful than though raw power etc.

GIP. :~D I think Avatar: The Last Airbender is one of the few (Western) shows that have come close to having consistently real strong female characters recently. Fringe might also be included here, perhaps?

Also, Aeryn Sun rocks!

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] waterfall8484 - Date: 27 Sep 2010 10:10 am (UTC) - Expand
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

whois

kaigou: this is what I do, darling (Default)
锴 angry fishtrap 狗

to remember

"When you make the finding yourself— even if you're the last person on Earth to see the light— you'll never forget it." —Carl Sagan

October 2016

S M T W T F S
      1
2345678
91011 12131415
16171819202122
23242526272829
3031     

expand

No cut tags