I hope you know that this will go down on your permanent record.

[kaigou]

I suppose you could consider this a continuation from the dear-author posts; it's a series of thoughts (shorter this time, I hope) triggered by several comments. I suspect I'm going to be doing this kind of "you made me think of this" post, for a while to come.

Several responses noted that they've read allegedly "edgy" stories, only to read and find it very non-edgy. One or two responses went farther, and observed that in some cases, other reviewers find the story absolutely shocking/appalling for its cuss-words, or its drug use, or the blatant sexuality among the characters, etc, etc. The first thing I've got to say is that I frankly hate the term "edgy" -- because that's such a personal opinion it's pretty much useless as a criterion for a story's value. I've met people who think edgy is going more than two miles over the speed limit; they're never going to be able to handle it when I'm driving, that's for sure. I've met people who think jumping out of a perfectly good airplane into a no-man's land and then hiking out with only a pen-knife, a tube of toothpaste, and a spare shoelace is just another day at the office, and if you think I'm ever going to jump out of an airplane in this life or any other, boy have you got another think coming. That's pretty freakin' edgy, to me.

So someone who's always had a bed to sleep in, a roof over their heads, is going to think it's "edgy" to decide that tonight, that's it, you're walking out even if you don't have no place to go, and if that means sleeping hidden among the pitched boxes behind the local Safeway, so be it... uh, sure, you call that edgy if you want.

I recall a few years ago, a friend rather irritably noting that newspapers needed to ditch the "what's in, what's out" crap in January and instead note "words that can now be retired plskthxbai" -- like the word at the time, frisson. It means, "a sudden passing thrill, a moment of excitement", akin to shivers up your spine that a second later are gone. It should not be used to describe "the excitement of a new combination of things" -- which was really some twit getting fusion mixed up with frisson and butchering both -- that's how we end up with idiocies like calling "new american cuisine" (say what?) as "frisson". (Personally, I'd rather my cultural cuisine not be a "sudden, momentary excitement that passes quickly" -- in more ways than one -- but since I'm not running the world yet, I'm stuck with complaining here.)

It seems that for fiction (especially urban literary fiction, and urban fantasy), the keyword right now is "edgy". I guess "fringey" got nixed because it made too many people think of their grandmother's curtains.

As a denominator, you can see 'edgy' coming a mile away. It's a self-conscious sort of approach, and if there's any way to irk a reader, it's by forcing the reader to notice you're back there. That's not my wisdom, though; that's something I learned years ago from one of the best books ever on writing -- and one, frustratingly, that's been out of print and I don't know WHY damn it! -- by Gary Provost, Make Every Word Count. (If you can find a used copy, GRAB IT. It really is the best damn book.) He quotes from a story he'd written in college, a paragraph about a kid standing on the side of the road. I don't recall the specifics -- and the book's in the study/library and I'm too lazy to go track it down -- but I do recall it used "torpid" in the so-not-subtle metaphor of "highway of life". I've always loved that, that it was the only example I could ever recall of seeing "torpid" in print. Ahem.

Anyway, his point was that when you're using words that don't fit a character -- big words or small -- then you're reminding the reader that there's an author back there. You're practically waving at them, if you're not waving the thesaurus while you're at it. Edgy, for me, is a lot like that: see, look at this, I am PUSHING your BUTTONS, I am QUESTIONING your settled life as a SUBURBIA DWEEB, I am so EDGY I only wear black because they haven't come up with something DARKER.

(Yes, yes, did I forget to mention that I'm impressed?)

The problem with 'edgy' stories is that, really, they're not edgy because the characters think so. These stories are edgy because the author thinks so -- or the agent, or the editor, or the publicist, or the audience itself (if the audience buys into the authorly-etc hype). I recall reading some otherwise forgettable story, years ago, that still made an impression on me for one reason: there were entire sections devoted to the character's computer. The character was a hacker; this was back when War Games had just hit the big screen, so when I say years, yeah, I mean years. Point is, clearly a personal computer just boggled the author's mind, just seemed phenomenal -- and thus every frickin' detail had to be in there. Okay, let me rephrase: it wasn't every detail. It wasn't even -- especially by some standards -- really that many. But as someone who could walk into my parents' basement and play with an Apple IIe, three Kaypro 16s, and one of the first Compaqs, as well as the very first doorstop Mac... a personal computer just wasn't all that.

That vague dislike just sat around in my head for years, until I was reading a story in which a character's a mechanic. Now, to some folks, "being a mechanic" is a pretty opaue profession, as boggling to many as that first author found personal computers -- at home! on your desk! with... gasp... a DAISY WHEEL printer! omg! the power! mwahahahaha!... Err, where was I? Ah. Anyway, at the time I was reading, I was also spending easily an hour a day or so, babying my own car -- when I wasn't driving home on the weekend to work on cars with my dad. This is what I realized: when my dad asked me what I'd done, I'd give a two or three word answer, maybe a few more. When friends asked me, it was entirely different. When I thought to myself, about what I was doing, it wasn't even three words.

[while thinking of day's schedule] Do carbs.

[to Dad] Fixed the carbs. Butterflies were shot. [and now insert disgruntled argument about the fact that I didn't make them shot, grrrr]

[to friends] Had to do my carbs. [blank looks all around, usual suggestion of "take it somewhere"] It wasn't that big a deal. Just the butterflies. [more blank looks, maybe a few curious looks] Okay, an engine runs because fuel and air mix, when there's a spark, and that powers the engine turning over. The carbs control the amount of air and fuel coming in, and if the mix is off, you'll get too much fuel and run rich, like when you see black smoke (not blue) pouring out of the exhaust. Too much air, and the car runs lean, which is when you'll get backfires and it'll be peppy but not that powerful in the long haul. [stop to see if anyone still cares, if so, continue] The butterflies look like butterfly-wings, inside the box about yay big. They go up and down, letting in air, and if they get stuck, suddenly it's all fuel and no air, and you're flooding the engine. [check again] .... etc.

The point isn't that details and research are important to a story; they are. And the point isn't (which most writers are aware of, if not always able to assess in their own work) whether you're dumping too many details onto the readers. The point is whether these are details the characters would dump, and who the characters would tell; if the character's audience is in a non-informational category, including the details is either saying one or both characters in the conversation have abruptly turned stupid, or you're waving a big freakin' flag that says I DID RESEARCH GO ME.

You do not need to info-dump. In fact, you do not need to include all those details that might make the story 'edgy'.

Y'know what? The kids I knew on the street, for the most part, didn't actually cuss any more than the average college student, nor was their grammar that bad (though that seemed to depend on age and exposure to media -- actually a decent source of basic pronounciation/speaking-grammar). There was a lot of jargon & shorthands, at times, and more if you didn't care to have passerby or nearby people understanding the real topic of your conversation. But we didn't sit around going fk, fk, fk, fk this and fk that and fkn everything. We could actually have entire conversations without it. Not that anyone blinked if someone did cuss, but it wasn't something we noticed.

Now, if someone from the Everyday World was in hearing distance and looking either uncomfortable or nervous -- which was especially funny when it was me and two friends who were tinier than me; I clocked in at maybe 125 and 5'5" -- which is just a shade over scrawny -- and my friends were both about 5'2 or 5'3" -- so we may look questionable but we were hardly scarily so. But if we noticed an audience, wooooo, the conversation would abruptly change. Frex, between two girlfriends:

While unawares: "Thing is, I saw him on Friday night and he was just feeling down, y'know? And his girlfriend was, I dunno, some kinda fake smile. I dunno how much longer that'll last, which sucks, y'know? They're good people, but I don't know what else happened, I was hanging with J-- the rest of the night..."

When realizing the audience, sudden shift! "Though I gotta say, you hang with him, use three condoms before you fuck 'em! Maybe five! Like fuck he can give face, I thought was I gonna fuckin' explode or something. His dick's kinda small though. Almost asked him whether he was in, fucker thought he was all that, what a fucking moron."

Are we seeing a difference, people?

Thing is, no one is immune from audience awareness. I’ve watched business people pull over the cloak of I AM DIRECTOR FEAR ME even when they don’t seem to realize it -- trying to intimidate a hotel clerk, or dealing with annoying employees, or whatever -- along with Allegedly Big Name Musicians abruptly changing the topic to all the places they’ve toured in Europe and just how packed every show was. It can be through body language, or verbal words, or sometimes just changing one’s clothing from jeans and t-shirt to power suit but otherwise all the same. Yes, this is called displaying attitude, and we all do it, in some shape or form, and we most often do it to draw a line between ourselves and the audience: this is me, and you can only watch. That ‘attitude’ is simply differentiating yourself.

The reason I mention this, though, is because as an author, I would really appreciate it if, when extrapolating, you don’t fall for the audience-tuned behaviors. Sure, you might think, based on your casual observation while walking through the streets of San Francisco, that every homeless person does X and street kids do Y and club doormen in their off-hours do Z. You might be right. You might also be very, very wrong -- especially if your observations were made while the observee was aware of you. The more pointed or intent your study, the more likely the object of study will shift to act to your expectations (or against them, for those ornery types).

Getting back to edgy:

I believe it’s buymeaclue who regularly posts book reviews (to be so reliable and regular is a source of great admiration from me) and although it’s never been stated in exactly this way, I don’t think I’m off the mark that some of the books that get a strong pass from B sometimes get that because the book/author is trying to hard. All the button-pushing piles up, until B seems to grow tired of it and set that book aside. The button-pushing, to me, is just like an author sat down and said, “what can I write that’s really edgy? Kids want edgy stuff these days, and I want something that will make people sit up and take notice, so how many more suburban buttons can I push while I’m at it?”

This is how you get train-wreck novels (or after-school specials) in which it’s not enough to have someone from a street background. There must also be extreme physical abuse. Oh, and incest. And molestation. Maybe even gay molestation. Throw in a drug, or four. With a mentally-ill mother, or a wheel-chair bound sister who likes to wear miniskirts and flash passerby. There have been times I’m not sure whether I’m reading/watching an afterschool/Lifetime-style wanna-be-a-tearjerker, or a cuisinart-made farce. I think the difference is that the latter is aware of the over-the-top element and having fun with it, while the former is So Terribly Sincere.

I avoid So Terribly Sincere authors. They really mean well, but they’re so busy meaning well that they don’t always seem to be able to write well.

Stop being sincere about your story, and start being sincere about the characters. For that matter, find whomever it is out there who encourages writers to “push their limits” and at the same time assists/enables/feeds writers the interpretation that the limits that should be pushed are the audience’s... and make them stop. Because, no, the audience does not need its limits pushed. It is not reading you to get its buttons whacked repeatedly.

And, most likely, the author does not need to push limits, either, which seems to result in contrived, awkward, or emotionally stilted stories because the author was too busy playing tug of war with his/her psyche to write.

The only thing that needs to be pushed -- the only party in the contract whose buttons need to be pushed -- are those of the characters.

I have a casual friend named D. This person is struggling with falling in love for the first time. I’ve been there, done that, and personally am quite jaded about it. But as D struggles, I am despite myself caught up in caring as to his eventual end. Not because “love or no love” pushes buttons for me but because I know that the events are serious button- and edge-pushing for D. It matters so desperately to D, and since D has come to matter for me, so do I give a damn about D’s crises... even if D doesn’t exist outside black ink and paper.

Capiche?

I will not name the urban fantasies that do this, but I can think of four off the top of my head that do, and that’s the reason for this lengthy diatribe, err, commentary. That is, if you take away all the extraneous details that are so gritty! and edgy! and whatever, you have a character whose own buttons weren’t really pushed all that much. It’s just more playing to the audience, a behavior I can see through in others (and myself) as nothing more than show, and while perhaps So Terribly Sincere, it’s still... hollow.

---

A second issue of note is one forwarded to me by a kind soul as a commentary made elsewhere, and since it’s a damn good point, I’ll go ahead and address it: those people/characters trained in formal dojos, who (a la Hollywood) go out on the street and kick ass in the fine Jackie Chan style.

Hummm.

I’m sure they exist. I never met any.

No, really. I’m trying to recall anyone who had any sort of formal dojo training. It’s possible they were around and just never made a point of bringing it up -- I’m not counting the one guy who practiced tai chi in the park with several elderly Chinese men just because it pleased him to do so, nor am I counting the one lone goth I met (years later, while in Boston) who liked to do his katas on the edge of the dancefloor, a sort of white-boy’s attempt at grace (and a fine one at that, I should add) without looking like half-dead roadkill. But I’ve been trying to recall -- and failing -- anyone who used, let alone just plain knew, any more set/stylized fighting arts. Hell, I recall one doorman-friend commenting that in six years of doing door at a long-lasting and enduringly popular live club, he’d broken up maybe four fights -- and all of those were on college nights. When it was GBH, or Gov’t Issue, or even GWAR? Maybe some tense moments, but not a fight like the all-out brawls you see staged in movies.

For that matter, the ones who were always stinking for a fight -- as I mentioned in the previous posts -- were really the suburban kids. The city skinheads were actually a rather cool group if you didn’t get on their bad side by being an idiot about life, and while I never much got into skinhead music other than Oi, I also learned to pretty much expect that a skinhead would open a door for me, or if he saw me crushed in the audience would have no compunction about hoisting me onto the stage to get me out of the way -- which, incidentally, is part of what Seven Seconds was ranting about, that sometimes some guys would do that to a chick even if she did want to be in the pit, but anyway. It was the suburban ‘skinheads’ coming into the city who wanted, and expected, all sorts of exciting! violent! action! blah blah blah.

Fast forward ten years and I’m watching [white, I must qualify] kids in the suburbs listening to ghetto rap and making a whole to-do out of the clothes, the mannerisms, the ways of speaking... I bet you double the pizza money they put on a lot of attitude but don’t get much but fights in the city -- which doesn’t displease them, granted, since ‘rumbling’ is what they go there for. But most folks (outside dealers, of course) don’t care to piss in their own sandbox. As one skinhead put it to me once, “I’m just out getting myself a goddamn sandwich, I’m really not interested in having to put up with someone’s bad-assed shit. Save it.”

Now, granted, I did get taught to fight by a former skinhead (he’d segued into a hardcore by the time I knew him), and that brings us to Why Dogs Aren’t Allowed In Dojos.

I figured, all those years of having the mindset that I’d get in one good punch or kick and then run like hell... hunh, maybe I’d like to be able to stand my ground, too. Yeah, that sounds cool. Except I didn’t calculate that my background would have such an impact; it just never occured to me that any of those lessons had sunk in, any of that time observing had made a difference. It did, though mostly in the attitude/intent even if I needed work in the finesse of it all.

Actual conversation, the one time I decided I really did want to learn a martial art. (It was taijitsu, a Japanese style of tai chi, that retains a martial focus; I like tai chi but I couldn’t find anyone local that taught the older/longer styles, and I liked the taijitsu sensei and his teaching style a lot better than the other dojos I visited, along with liking the style itself.)

Sensei: Okay, now everyone’s going to practice that move.
Me: Which of us is uke?
Partner: I’ll be it first, since you’re still starting-white. [I was one of two just-started; most of our classmates were advanced-beginners.]
Me: *punches*
Partner: *doesn’t dodge fast enough*
Partner: *gets punched*
Partner: Shit!
Me: Oh! Sorry!
Partner: It’s okay, just -- uh, ow -- caught me off-guard. Next one, you don’t have to really punch, okay? You’re just learning the move. You’ll put force behind it later, okay?
Me: Right.
Partner: Okay, ready?
Me: *punches*
Partner: Ow!
Me: Sorry!

Repeat this about ten times. He couldn’t get the block up fast enough, and I couldn’t remember to pull my punches.

On top of that, I twist my punches, as I was originally taught. I can’t remember the exact reasoning behind this (it’s lost in the gray matter and it’s late at night, too), but I seem to recall it has something to do with reach. That is, my reach is going to be less than a man four inches taller than me, and if you twist your fist at the last second, it stretches your arm just that tiny bit more. And, hrm, I think it’s a way of exploding the force at the end of the punch, as well, with the final benefit of meaning that you’re holding your fist in a non-punch mode until the last second, which makes it easier to avoid telegraphing and, uhm, something else. (I’m sure someone on my flist can point out the reasoning, or CP will remind me tomorrow if I remember to ask.)

Anyway, the poor Sensei must’ve told me again, and again, and again, to punch straight. He knew all the reasons why I’d been taught to twist my fist, and he explained what was different (though valuable) in the way I’d been taught, and contrasted it with the way he wanted me to punch, and why. Okay... and I still couldn’t do it. I could do it if I went slow, but the second my fist comes up, my brain kicks into some kind of mental space that isn’t much of a mental anything, and my fist just goes flying. (I have mediocre aim for that reason, though at least I don’t close my eyes when punching or when punched.) And when you add in the instinctive power-application, it was... well, I wasn’t sure whether to be happy or bewildered when I arrived at the dojo to find this conversation between the sensei and three of the greens:

Green #1: Could I partner with someone else, tonight? Please don’t put me with Sol.
Sensei: What?
Green #2: Me, too. I’m not saying I don’t like Sol, but...
Sensei: What is this? Are you seriously telling me that you don’t want to practice with a girl?
Greens: Well, uh...
Sensei: The fact that Sol is a girl does not mean she is delicate, and I won’t have students who perpetrate the attitude that girls can’t--
Green #1: Oh, no, no, sir, it’s not that she’s delicate... but that she’s not.
Green #2: She punches really hard, sir.
Sensei: Why don’t you just punch back, then?
Green #1: But... she’s a girl.
Sensei: AAAUUUUGHHH.

(Yes, he really did hold his head and cry AAAUUUUGHHH, just like Charlie Brown.)

Sigh. Point is, I don’t know that many folks with major scrapping background and/or training who’ve gone into formal dojo-based training, or vice versa. These are two worlds with very different teaching styles, and they appeal to very different personalities. Underlying that, of course, is the knowledge from higher-level arts-friends that when you get past a certain point, you no longer go spoiling for a fight. It’s almost like the fight’s taken out of you by your awareness that you can do it, so you have nothing to prove. In some ways, knowing that I didn’t have to fight during my time in the city -- knowing I had the alternative to just turn tail and run, damn it -- and that running wasn’t always a surefire reputation-destroyer, meant that I didn’t need to prove jack, either. I mean, if I don’t need to prove something by getting my face bashed in, let’s avoid the face-bashing and get onto something more pleasurable, right?

Which means that when I walk into a dojo and there’s the usual pecking-order establishment with the newcomer (which happens in some manner with every entrant into an established group, it’s just group dynamics) -- I get particularly turned off by the fact that in a dojo, the order is set based on, well, fighting. And no, as a matter of fact, I can’t do that Jackie Chan move or kick over your head, but I can do what’s worked quite well in the past. I walk the hell away. I’ve got nothing to prove, and I’ve got enough fights in my past and my present that I have no interest in extracurricular fights to round out my days.

That’s a similar behavior/attitude to what I find in friends who’ve studied for awhile. Signs of trouble, and they just keep walking. (They’ll stop if it’s really an issue, but I’ve never seen even a single one start a fight, nor have I ever seen one escalate a fight, not so long as there’s a way to just walk away.) There’s a definite lack of attitude compared to street-taught folks, but under it is the same core of ‘I see no reason to waste my time’. Just moving along, nothing to see here. That’s a higher-level MA student, and it’s possible if I knew any while on the streets, they didn’t mention it because it had no bearing and because they had as little interest in ‘fighting’ as I did, if for different reasons.

Not saying you won’t see street kids jousting around after springing for the latest kung-fu extravaganza at the dollar theater... but when push comes to shove, the moves that work are the ones that are used, and the moves that work are invariably dirty, fast, and designed to get you out and away. Obviously. (Or not so obviously, but hey, the benefit of the doubt.)

Corrollary to this, I’m trying to think of any urban fantasies I’ve read in which a character is solely dojo-trained and then walks out onto the street and thinks s/he can own it. I’m not coming up with any titles. Most, actually, are like Buffy, where the story does contain ‘dojo time’ in the sense of training, but the application is out on uneven ground, with no mats, no padding, no sensei to holler a time-out. I suppose some of the action/thriller stories I’ve read -- like the Rain series, or the Bourne series -- do have dojo-trained artists kicking ass and taking prisoners, but in that case we’re talking about long-time training of professionals (govt or mercenary). As a reader, I willingly accept that such agents would go through the same style of real-world environmental training-mix as much as Buffy -- or any police officer or DEA agent, for that matter.

Maybe someone on my flist can name a story in which the issue of formal training meeting city streets is treated fairly and accurately. I can’t even think of a story where it’s an issue (except those with the caveat of mixed-training time). I only know that if someone had walked into a group and announced he’d studied X art for Y time and could kick anyone’s ass... that he’d get pretty much the same reaction I give over-feisty people at dojos. At most, a raised eyebrow or two, and probably a fair share just walking away.

Then again, announcing you’ve studied a martial art -- or in any way making it obvious that you have -- is just one more form of laying your cards on the table. You’ve just revealed your weapon, and you’re effectively brandishing it about for everyone to see. Yeah, and now everyone knows that you’re the idiot in this gathering: because we know how you will fight, but you still don’t know nothing about what we can do. Maybe your boasting is true, that you’d take us down in a heartbeat. But you could be wrong. Do you really want to find out?

To conclude this most recent rambling contemplation of the urban fantasy (and related) genre, complete with excessive use of parenthesis, if you can name any good treatments of formal martial arts in street-life stories, do tell. I’d be curious to hear/read how the author treated the differing mindsets when it comes to fighting.

---

all the parts ▪ dear [not just urban fantasy] author part I ▪ dear [not just urban fantasy] author part II ▪ dear [not just urban fantasy] author part III ▪ permanent record, pt I: edginess, and street fighting ▪ permanent record, pt II: guns, knives, and making it hurt

continue to part II

Comments

[reileen.livejournal.com]

The only thing that needs to be pushed -- the only party in the contract whose buttons need to be pushed -- are those of the characters.

I...think this is going to be written on a Post-It and stuck on the shelves nearby my desk.

Also, stamped onto the foreheads of Trying-Too-Hard writers in one of my fandoms...

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I guess it should be obvious (should it?) but it's one of those things I realize when I stop and say, "why is my story flat?" ...especially compared to the stories I really admire/enjoy.

[sans-pertinence.livejournal.com]

My Calistoga water just went up my nose. Ouch. *falls over laughing*

I've been having trouble finding new books and authors of late. There's a lot more to it than edge or a lack thereof, though. More like book-sized plot holes. And characters I have no sympathy or feeling for. It's not good when the entire cast makes you want to slap them upside their idiotic (to you) heads.

As for your dojo experiences, the first incident rather mirrored one of mine. I don't punch straight or 'fight fair' (I just don't see the point), which often defeats the purpose of stylized kata and a good chunk of traditional karate.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Fight fair? Uh, why? Isn't the point to win the fight? (And by winning, I mean: getting out of it without getting your face bashed in.)

Reminds me of another amusing conversation in the dojo, with the brown-belt that was my height, my weight, and experienced enough that he took nothing personally, and was a damn good teacher...

Him: Okay, now, the real world applications are... [proceeds to give Real World examples which I guess I needed more than the other students, because I never heard him create any 'what-ifs' for anyone else, don't know if that's good or bad]... Okay, so I've got you like this, what do you do?

Me: Kick you in the kneecaps?

Him: Uh. Well, that's one option.

;-)

[kythiaranos.livejournal.com]

This is awesome. I especially liked your discussion of knowing what details are appropriate in different situations. You've given me a lot to think about today.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Why, thank you! Heh, if my brain cells aren't working much right now, someone's should be. ;-)

[mikkeneko.livejournal.com]

I've never been a fan of 'edginess' in stories, either -- not only because I don't particularly enjoy them myself, but I just don't really appreciate the philosophy -- that things can only have merit if they are unpleasant. I think that a story that goes out of its way to be 'edgy' is setting itself up to be antagonistic to the reader, and that's just a lot of recipe for fail from the start.

I don't require all Hollywood happy endings, you know, but I've got to have a reason to WANT to read your damn story. The fact that it's 'edgy' is not, in and of itself, a reason. It's kind of an anti-reason.

I guess you could put it this way: I think of 'edgy' stories a lot like someone else's teenagers. They're not my baby, I'm not pre-obliged to love them despite their flaws, so give me one damn good reason why I should put up with the surliness, the pettiness, and the attitude?

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

The anti-reason!

I guess you could put it this way: I think of 'edgy' stories a lot like someone else's teenagers. They're not my baby, I'm not pre-obliged to love them despite their flaws, so give me one damn good reason why I should put up with the surliness, the pettiness, and the attitude?

I adore your way of putting things, because an 'edgy' story is a damn lot like a ill-mannered teenager.

[talheres.livejournal.com]

...hat things can only have merit if they are unpleasant.

While I'm not into Harry Potter, I did have problems with some of the critics of it, seeming that they seemed only happy with children's literature when the protagonists in the story are in as miserable situations as possible.

Unfortunately I no longer have the links to some diatribes by this one individual who also seemed to have issues with the concept of fantasy as well.

[askerian]

♥ I love these posts. Not only are they informative and entertaining, but they give me ideas for my characters. Huhuhu.

*goes on a tangent* ~ How efficient is it to fight mostly with kicks? >.> 'cause being an empath, the character would rather not touch people with his hands if possible. Even with gloves, it's a bit too close. Might be easier to unbalance him if they can catch his ankles, I'm thinking, but I don't have a clue. Kicks probably hit harder than punches, what with legs being stronger than arms, but how high can you realistically kick outside of kickboxing and karate without ending up on your ass or catching a knee to the balls because someone closed the distance, really. Hrrm hrrm hrrm. Not that he wouldn't use his hands if he had to, he's not that sensitive, but he wouldn't prefer it. Augh. Help plz.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I was going to say that the reason I'd told the brown belt (in my response to RG, above) that I'd kick in the kneecaps is because I was taught (and demonstrated to) that kicking where you lift your foot maybe about higher than your own knee-level is an easy way to lose your balance. It's also hard to make your kicks as explosive as your punches, and I say that as someone whose sport focused on explosive leg-power, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that when you punch, you've got (hopefully) both feet on the ground to counter-balance the force of your muscles. When you kick, your upper body isn't counter-balance, and instead the entirety of your balance is on the other foot.

Try standing in place and raising one foot high enough for you to bend just enough to tie your shoelaces. Now, try to do it without falling over or putting your foot down. Most folks can't. That's the balance required in a kick -- along with speed. After all, if I punch too slow and you block/capture my hand, then you've got one of my weapons (my hand/arm) but I retain my balance until/unless you then use my arm as a lever to throw or shake or whatever to me.

If I kick too slow and you catch my leg, then it's a helluva lot even easier to get me off balance -- and once you're down in a street fight, just give it up. Cover and hope the other person(s) gets bored after a few kicks. Grappling is a hard art to learn, and requires a lot of muscle to make up for the leverage you lose when you go horizontal.

But then I thought again, and realized there are arts that focus on kicks more than punches. Go do a search on capoera, I think it's called -- sometimes also called Brazilian Kickboxing, I think? It's a completely non-asian art form developed by slaves that's almost entirely non-weapon (outside a few basic tools that wouldn't have been questioned in the hands of a slave, like garden implements) and because slaves were often shackled at the wrists, the art involves a lot of kicks from the ground.

Oi, that reminds me: Mugen, in Samurai Champloo, uses a variation on Capoera. It's also the source of break-dancing, and does look pretty similar. It's a high-intensity art. I've met MA folks who've hung with capoera artists, and their comment was, "just how do you fight that? there are legs going everywhere, and you can't get in there!" ;-)

[sevenall.livejournal.com]

If I can weigh in? Fighting with kicks works really well if you're fast, agile and focused. Especially if your opponent has superior reach. No fancy spinning or jumping required, just roundhouse and/or back kicks to the legs will do a lot of damage.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Here via kythianros. Good stuff. My only "but wait" reaction is that audience awareness behavior is a lot of what fuels not just drama but history. Elizabeth Tudor was a genius at it. Nathan Hale was probably thinking "Damnation this is monstrous, I do so want to live." What I have been noticing is that a lot of the glitzy edge these days shows Joss Whedon traits, thus becomes stale unless you're reading for those tropes, then I guess it's exciting. But even then you're not being surprised, you're getting what you want, which is not quite my understanding of "edge."

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I think the key for audience awareness is that if you're writing it as an author and intending it, then it's a powerful tool in characterization. But if you're trying to research someone and you don't stop to ask what impact you have on the person's behavior, then you're going to be fooled into thinking a character/person is like that all the time.

I've read more than a few urban (of all sort) stories where clearly the author does believe person of type A or B is genuinely "like that". And thanks to having seen people flip in and out of a similar behavior/mode, I find myself (as a reader) saying: I don't believe this author has a real handle on the character, but instead was taken in.

Joss Whedon often said, during Buffy's run, that he wouldn't give viewers what they wanted. He'd give them what they needed. I used to resent that since thanks but I'd rather get what I want!, and then I finally grokked his meaning.

[buymeaclue.livejournal.com]

and although it’s never been stated in exactly this way, I don’t think I’m off the mark that some of the books that get a strong pass from B sometimes get that because the book/author is trying to hard.

Yes. Oh, yes. In so many different ways.

(I actually do say it explicitly in a lot of the rejection letters I send. Stop showing off and just _write,_ people!)

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I shall now add Omniscient Mindreader to my resume. Go me!

...since a lot of my clients already think I am, anyway.

Although I must include (more to the point) that some authors try too hard and it's not even an 'edgy' story... just that something out there tells/upbraids authors if they're not uncomfortable writing a story. I think the problem is (and I struggled with this myself) that it's hard to tell the difference, sometimes, between "I'm not sure I like writing this part" and "the characters aren't liking this part".

[clowe.livejournal.com]

One thing that kind of ticks me off is when people judge how tough they are by quantifying fights. Who's tougher, the guy that gets in 300 brawls or the guy that's walked away from 300? I don't think there's a right answer there, but I definitely don't like it when someone tries to make a distinction between the two.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

Maybe when I was young I might've said the first guy... no, wait, no, I never would've picked the first guy. I pretty much have always thought the one who could avoid the fight is the stronger/tougher -- because avoiding a fight means having the power to avoid a fight.

That's the real key element: the one who can say, "not doing this," is the one with the power. Like my friend observed years ago while in a club, real power means never having to flex a muscle.

[sevenall.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I've done martial arts for a while and something you learn really quickly is that weight makes a difference in a controlled environment. Do I want to try out how much weight makes a difference in an uncontrolled environment where I might get hurt? Nope.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I can tell you that weight makes a difference in an uncontrolled environment only if we're talking about the good solid hefting weight of a concrete block. If you can get it off the ground and get the force into a throw, it's a lovely amount of weight.

Ahem. Not that I would know personally, of course. *cough*

[moffit.livejournal.com]

Gary Provost, Make Every Word Count

I remember buying this book pretty darned cheap from amazon a couple years ago, as a gift for someone. :D

I like hearing about your dojo days. Anecdotes? :D?

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

You should've kept a copy! Even for only part-time writers, he still has so many awesome things to say, and by that I mean wonderfully concrete ways of putting it, that it's worth it. Get another copy for yourself!

Hahahah, anecdotes... not too many. Between the commute and a certain black belt, I ended up parting ways with that dojo. Besides, after six months, I'd also grown too frustrated with the well-intentioned but misguided boys (and I use that term purposefully) around me. It'd gotten to the point where I'd leave bruises on them because they just plain wouldn't even try to punch back. The students I got paired with, over and over, would pull their punches or aim above my shoulder (and I'm not that short!) or just sort of wave their hand at me and call that a punch. It really was a lot of the "I don't want to hit a girl," and they even said as much. GYAH.

I did learn that eight years of crew gave me awesome balance, and a fine muscular control far above what most novices have. That is, if the sensei said, "put your hand like this," I could replicate it pretty closely. Not saying I could do it fast, or with any power, but I could at least do the motion repeatedly and pretty close to the same each time -- but then, crew don't do much if not teach you to take a single move, break it down into its distinct minute steps, and then repeat ad infinitum. 'Course, that (and irking the boys) were about my only skills. Okay, and frustrating the poor Sensei when I twisted my punch. Again. Heh.

[leorising1959.livejournal.com]

...if the character's audience is in a non-informational category, including the details is either saying one or both characters in the conversation have abruptly turned stupid, or you're waving a big freakin' flag that says I DID RESEARCH GO ME.

*raises hand sheepishly* Erm, yeah. I've taken a break hiatus -- ah hell, I've quit writing my fic for a couple of years now, and when I re-read the old parts, that's what I see. Yes, I've done research, yes, I want you to notice that fact. Ugh. Not attractive, not at all.

Some of my detail-mindedness comes, however stilted it may seem, because I pretty much "see" my characters performing their actions and I write ALL of that down. He turned to the left. He put the whatsis on the nearby coffee table. He sat back again.

It's too much.

I know that the "writing down what the characters do in my head" is a pretty common writerly state. I'm nothing special there. In fact, one of the great reasons to write fanfic is because the characters are so well-developed by the original author that you can picture their activities pretty clearly. It's easy, it's lazy, it's essentially narration.

I'm thinking the art will come better for me in the editing. Cut, cut, cut those details! Find a turn of phrase that paints the picture succinctly for the reader.

I hope I'm learning how to do that. We'll see.

^_^

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying I got over it (because I still struggle sometimes) but it was actually Gary Provost who best illustrated that you don't really need all the details of character movement. Despite knowing that, I can see in my own writing that I have this strange -- if common! -- inner voice that says, "oh, if you don't say he walked across the room then someone thinking he's at the door is going to say, hey! how'd he get over there!" ...so there's a lot (too much? just enough? hard to say) of bits like, "in three paces..." or "he moved to..." and various other work-arounds just so you get stage action.

Which, hrm, I think is the analogy Provost used, or maybe that was another teacherly-writer. Can't remember. But it's the idea of stage versus film, now that I recall: because the characters are ever-present and "live on stage", if you read a script, it'll say "moves stage left" and "moves downstage, opens desk" and "exeunt stage right" etc.

If you watch an edited film, though, you don't even see the characters enter the room. He's already in the room at scene start, and you might see him sit up from the bed -- starting the movement -- but the next cut you see him standing by the desk. The audience is quite adept at filling in the blanks of that simple movement; we've had moving images for a hundred years now, and we aren't likely to think you're making a character teleport just because you don't show the in-betweening.

Maybe if you think of it as an edited film, instead? Write it down as you would narrate a film, rather than a staged play. I've also found that watching well-edited films (with a focus on action films, which tend to be tighter-edited) are a good way to get a cinemagraphic sense of storytelling.

When it comes to fanfic, though, the fault isn't with bad writers. It's just from so genuinely loving the characters that you, and most readers, really do want to know every single detail. Unfortunately that's also a writing style that doesn't translate too well to a world where the readers don't automatically adore your characters just from seeing the pairing in the heading. ;-)

[cosplayeriori.livejournal.com]

Since I sadly dun have a TON of time. My only toss in comment is. Yes, for clubs its usually the dumb white kids getting into fights. In my years being around music scene of SF and having bouncers for clubs like the Fillmore and Warfield be my 'baby sitters' on going to the office with mom days, when I was young. Rarely did I ever hear about fights and they didn't hold back talking around me, because they where always talking about what shows they worked, how late it went, if they had to do anything. Really all you got where guys getting kicked out for moshing/stage jumping (which isn't allowed at the fillmore they will kick you out) or some guy getting drunk and being an ass. I will say one of the most WELL behaved and friendly audiences I've ever seen was at a Garry Newman concert who had switchblade symphony as their opener. Granted the filmore was filled to the brim with a strange mix of ex-80's now semi-prep office types and hard core goth scene. Everyone got along, and was really nice. I remember my mom not wanting me to wander around on my own (I was maybe 14-15?) cause people looked 'crazy' in her opinion. I dunno how I did it but I got free and walked around the packed fillmore. It just stood out to me how nice everyone was. Maybe cause I was younger by a good chunk then most where? I dunno.But its one of those things that just always stayed with me....and ending semi-pointless rant. :D

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

I don't think it was just you -- some of the most enjoyable experiences I had at shows were among the 'harder' audiences, like skinheads and hardcores and the like. Those nights, my favorite club would do the obligatory "this is a safe zone" emphasis, and wand or pat everyone down for weapons, and nothing ever happened.

Come back the next night to see The Connells or Throwing Muses or some other college-indie band, and man it was like frickin' drunken fight-fest from hell. If it wasn't a group of rowdy fratboys trying to shout down the opening band, it was a bunch of university kids getting riled up at a bunch of kids wearing sweatshirts from a competing university. Oh, please, people, the skinheads were here last night and moshed very nicely, and yet you people with your college-classes and brand-name blue jeans can't frickin' co-exist for two hours? Get a grip.

[silmaril.livejournal.com]

Hi. theweaselking recently linked to your "dear [not just urban fantasy] authors" posts, and after reading them I looked around your journal a bit, and found it well-written, extremely interesting reading. I do not like to add people to my reading list without informing them as to the reason why, so I am dropping you a note here even though you do not request it in your user info. Thanks for the great entries.

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Oh, no problem! I don't mind if someone friends and doesn't say anything -- eventually I'll notice and add back just as hospitality. I do default new additions to a basic filter, though, which means you won't automatically get all the locked posts (just because not everyone is interested or cares to read about house renovation or dogs or random kvetching about work). There's a link on the profile page if you do want to select additional filters, though, but that's entirely up to you. ;-)

[chibidrunksanzo.livejournal.com]

http://www.amazon.com/Make-Every-Word-Count-Provost/dp/0898790204/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200343808&sr=1-1

People would have been able to get the one from the person with a 100% feedback rating, but I already snatched that one up. Bwahahahaha!

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Believe me, you'll find it's worth it! ;-)

[asakiyume.livejournal.com]

I'm here from kythiaranos too --wow, this was fascinating on so many points. Sticking to telling the characters' story--that's it exactly. Not taking the reader aside and saying, " You see that guy? Well! Blah blah blah..." but just letting that guy come to life for the reader. And if the guy is an accountant and his idea of edgy is some strange car parked in his parking space, well, if you're in his head, with luck you can make people believe it.

The other thing that struck home for me was what you said about everyone always performing for an audience. I was thinking, that is so true. I do it myself. Then I sometimes think of the gap between the character I think I'm performing (cool hip mom of teenagers) to the character people may be seeing (eccentric loopy mom of teenagers).

[kaigou.livejournal.com]

Then I sometimes think of the gap between the character I think I'm performing (cool hip mom of teenagers) to the character people may be seeing (eccentric loopy mom of teenagers).

Hah, hah, yes. For me, I think the most frequent show is that of "don't get in my way" attitude, but I suspect to everyone else it's just "that damn grumpy bastard again."

This is also why I love multi-POV stories, where you get the contrast between the character's so-human interior view of themselves as too old, too short, too tall, too whatever... and then see them through another character's eyes, to see the first character is really quite amazing. It's like shining a light on someone, to see facets that are blindspots to ourselves (or the main character) -- not to mention sometimes highly amusing when someone's convinced they just made an absolute fool of themselves, and meanwhile the second character is all googly-eyed in amazement at the first person's utter coolness.

[braintastic.livejournal.com]

Hi, I wandered in from del.icio.us and I think this series of posts is super. (Although you'd think that most of it would be, you know, common sense - actually, scratch that. Common sense is not so common.)

Anyway! These posts are great.