Okay, I can go with that. (I still have troubles with majority and alignment, but that's just me, and a frolic 'n' detour.)
But if we agree that there really isn't a Fandom Majority, but rather a collection of loosely-aligned mini-communities (at least in an aesthetic and creative sense), doesn't that cut against the argument that we can best describe or identify fan fiction as the product of a fan community? Or to be more specific, let me try to address the two points you raised above:
[D]oes the existence of 'fandom' (as a generalized community of differing aesthetics that nonetheless is focused on and/or centered on some kind of shared/pre-existing narrative) have any influence at all in the creation of fanfiction?
First, of course it does, for the vast majority of what both of us would call fanfiction. Most of it is written by self-identified members of that community and for an audience consisting of that community, and the community's interests, enthusiasms, and standards will generally have some influence on what's produced.
But second, we have something of a chicken-and-egg problem here, because I'd argue that it's entirely possible for a writer to produce fanfiction without any contact at all with the community, and in the extreme case without a relevant community even existing. The only difference would be that in the last case, the writer would also be the only audience for the resulting work (or at least, the only audience able to read it with full understanding of what it's supposed to do). In these cases I'd say that the community has had no influence at all on the creation of the finished work. But if fanfiction is by definition the product of a community, there's not going to be any produced without some community influence, even if it's only a tangential and distant kind of influence.
And with that, on to part two:
And if so, does the existence of (and interaction with) any fandom (in part or whole) thereby have importance in measuring something as fanfiction?
This is where I'm going with a big Yes and no, with a side of, It depends on what one means by 'fandom'.
I'd say that the existence of a 'fandom' is crucial to whether a work is fanfiction, in a way, if (and only if) you conceive of a 'fandom' as a set of potential readers whose knowledge of and involvement with the source material is comprehensive enough that the writer was able to rely on it in shaping her work, and to use that knowledge to create the effects she's after.
Thus my continuing example of the American Idol story I had a friend rec in wildly enthusiastic terms: a perfectly readable story by a very good writer, but one that was nevertheless essentially incomprehensible to me, the outside reader. That is, I knew I was reading a story about how these two people formed a romantic and sexual relationship, and the words all flowed nicely enough that it wasn't painful to read; but I had no idea at all of why I was supposed to find any of it engaging, let along rave-worthy. It was working, that is, on a completely different level for those who actually knew and understood the source material, and depended on its readers having that knowledge. Most of what was going on in the story was invisible to me, but it would be wrong to say it wasn't there.
On the extreme side, this is where I locate the pro work that I think is what we're arguing over. Some such works I'd agree with you about: if you can get every bit of what's actually there without knowing the source it's probably derivative work that is not fanfiction by my definition. (This may be where we'd find Pride and Prejudice and Zombies -- I might be wrong, but without reading it I'd still be inclined to guess that it's not a work that was intended to be dependent on audience knowledge of the original from anything but a sales perspective.) But because a mainstream canon by its nature contains texts that many members of a mainstream audience will know well, it's also possible for a writer who isn't part of any 'fandom' beyond that so many of us belong to by reason of being versed in that canon, and perhaps having a special affection for some particular works within it, to write something that does depend for its effects on its readers having the kind of knowledge of the source that we associate with a fandom.
So this gives me the place where I'd be inclined to locate something like The Once and Future King. It's derivative and it's also fanfiction. Like that American Idol story, a person can read it without pre-existing knowledge of its sources, or the resonance of the Matter of Britain in so many of our minds, and you'll still be able to follow the story. (I got to it as a child, before I knew the underlying material, and had no real problems, and I'm sure the same is true of many of us.) But like that AI story, a lot of what it's doing is invisible if you don't have that background knowledge. When I first read it I couldn't quite see what the point of most of it was; it was when I came back to it with some knowledge of the canon that I could see what White was doing. I'm sure he didn't consciously think about what he needed his audience to know, but he did assume and depend on a certain amount of that knowledge.
And that illustrates the place where I'd say that if we're willing to count the kind of knowledge White assumed in his readers as a 'fandom,' then sure, I'd accept your formulation. From my point of view it's still a roundabout way of getting at the point about text; still, I'm not sure we're not using two different approaches to describe what in the end is really the same thing. That's on the 'yes' side of my 'well, yes and no.'
But if that wouldn't count as 'fandom' for purposes of your definition, then I'm back to the place where I'd say that no, the existence of a fandom and/or a work's place within it isn't a good touchstone at all, because it excludes work that I do think is fanfiction as well as being derivative fiction.
-- Damn. Maybe I should have been talking about required reading strategies rather than texts all along?
no subject
Date: 1 Jun 2010 10:08 pm (UTC)But if we agree that there really isn't a Fandom Majority, but rather a collection of loosely-aligned mini-communities (at least in an aesthetic and creative sense), doesn't that cut against the argument that we can best describe or identify fan fiction as the product of a fan community? Or to be more specific, let me try to address the two points you raised above:
[D]oes the existence of 'fandom' (as a generalized community of differing aesthetics that nonetheless is focused on and/or centered on some kind of shared/pre-existing narrative) have any influence at all in the creation of fanfiction?
First, of course it does, for the vast majority of what both of us would call fanfiction. Most of it is written by self-identified members of that community and for an audience consisting of that community, and the community's interests, enthusiasms, and standards will generally have some influence on what's produced.
But second, we have something of a chicken-and-egg problem here, because I'd argue that it's entirely possible for a writer to produce fanfiction without any contact at all with the community, and in the extreme case without a relevant community even existing. The only difference would be that in the last case, the writer would also be the only audience for the resulting work (or at least, the only audience able to read it with full understanding of what it's supposed to do). In these cases I'd say that the community has had no influence at all on the creation of the finished work. But if fanfiction is by definition the product of a community, there's not going to be any produced without some community influence, even if it's only a tangential and distant kind of influence.
And with that, on to part two:
And if so, does the existence of (and interaction with) any fandom (in part or whole) thereby have importance in measuring something as fanfiction?
This is where I'm going with a big Yes and no, with a side of, It depends on what one means by 'fandom'.
I'd say that the existence of a 'fandom' is crucial to whether a work is fanfiction, in a way, if (and only if) you conceive of a 'fandom' as a set of potential readers whose knowledge of and involvement with the source material is comprehensive enough that the writer was able to rely on it in shaping her work, and to use that knowledge to create the effects she's after.
Thus my continuing example of the American Idol story I had a friend rec in wildly enthusiastic terms: a perfectly readable story by a very good writer, but one that was nevertheless essentially incomprehensible to me, the outside reader. That is, I knew I was reading a story about how these two people formed a romantic and sexual relationship, and the words all flowed nicely enough that it wasn't painful to read; but I had no idea at all of why I was supposed to find any of it engaging, let along rave-worthy. It was working, that is, on a completely different level for those who actually knew and understood the source material, and depended on its readers having that knowledge. Most of what was going on in the story was invisible to me, but it would be wrong to say it wasn't there.
On the extreme side, this is where I locate the pro work that I think is what we're arguing over. Some such works I'd agree with you about: if you can get every bit of what's actually there without knowing the source it's probably derivative work that is not fanfiction by my definition. (This may be where we'd find Pride and Prejudice and Zombies -- I might be wrong, but without reading it I'd still be inclined to guess that it's not a work that was intended to be dependent on audience knowledge of the original from anything but a sales perspective.) But because a mainstream canon by its nature contains texts that many members of a mainstream audience will know well, it's also possible for a writer who isn't part of any 'fandom' beyond that so many of us belong to by reason of being versed in that canon, and perhaps having a special affection for some particular works within it, to write something that does depend for its effects on its readers having the kind of knowledge of the source that we associate with a fandom.
So this gives me the place where I'd be inclined to locate something like The Once and Future King. It's derivative and it's also fanfiction. Like that American Idol story, a person can read it without pre-existing knowledge of its sources, or the resonance of the Matter of Britain in so many of our minds, and you'll still be able to follow the story. (I got to it as a child, before I knew the underlying material, and had no real problems, and I'm sure the same is true of many of us.) But like that AI story, a lot of what it's doing is invisible if you don't have that background knowledge. When I first read it I couldn't quite see what the point of most of it was; it was when I came back to it with some knowledge of the canon that I could see what White was doing. I'm sure he didn't consciously think about what he needed his audience to know, but he did assume and depend on a certain amount of that knowledge.
And that illustrates the place where I'd say that if we're willing to count the kind of knowledge White assumed in his readers as a 'fandom,' then sure, I'd accept your formulation. From my point of view it's still a roundabout way of getting at the point about text; still, I'm not sure we're not using two different approaches to describe what in the end is really the same thing. That's on the 'yes' side of my 'well, yes and no.'
But if that wouldn't count as 'fandom' for purposes of your definition, then I'm back to the place where I'd say that no, the existence of a fandom and/or a work's place within it isn't a good touchstone at all, because it excludes work that I do think is fanfiction as well as being derivative fiction.
-- Damn. Maybe I should have been talking about required reading strategies rather than texts all along?